Wisdom to AC ... twice?

Slaved said:
This example does not resemble the one in question in this thread.

A closer example would be getting Sneak Attack +1d6 from Class 1 and Sneak Attack +1d6 from Class 2 and asking if they would stack when Sneak Attack applies.

Telling Blow feat from PHB2 allows you to apply Sneak Attack damage when you make a critical hit.

What happens if you make a critical hit against a flanked opponent? Do you apply sneak attack damage twice? Once for Telling Blow (the crit) and once for them being flanked?
 

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RigaMortus2 said:
Telling Blow feat from PHB2 allows you to apply Sneak Attack damage when you make a critical hit.

What happens if you make a critical hit against a flanked opponent? Do you apply sneak attack damage twice? Once for Telling Blow (the crit) and once for them being flanked?

I would certainly hope that the feat describes what to do under this circumstance as it could happen reasonably often with a build designed to do so.

But if worded properly I could certainly see it allowing for an effective doubling of Sneak Attack dice in a similar way that a Critical Hit multiplies extra damage from Power Attack.
 

Slaved said:
I would certainly hope that the feat describes what to do under this circumstance as it could happen reasonably often with a build designed to do so.

But if worded properly I could certainly see it allowing for an effective doubling of Sneak Attack dice in a similar way that a Critical Hit multiplies extra damage from Power Attack.

But extra dice (which sneak attack is) is not 'doubled' when you score a crit. Unlike a 'bonus to damage' which does not come in the form of dice. That is why Power Attack damage can be doubled on a crit and sneak attack isn't.

(Sorry if you already know this, your response made it seem you might not)

And I don't have the book in front of me, so I can't confirm at this time, but I don't think the feat says one way or the other that you can (or can't) apply multiple sources of sneak attack (such as the example I propose above).

Anyway, it is my contention that despite the wording (or lack thereof) of the feat, you can't get sneak attack from Telling Blow and flanking the same creature.
 

I know that damage dice are not multiplied on a Critical Hit. That is why I mentioned doubling rather than multiplying by the critical number and said similarly instead of the same. :cool:

Certainly a feat could be used to change the rules of the game though. If there was a feat that said Sneak Attack dice are multiplied on a critical hit by whoever has the feat then they would be.

I actually do have the feat wording with me and they could have worded it better.

Players Handbook Two said:
When you score a critical hit against a target, you deal your skirmish or sneak attack damage in addition to the damage from your critical hit. Your critical multiplier applies only to your normal damage, not your skirmish or sneak attack damage. This benefit affects both melee and ranged attacks.

I believe that the damage from your Critical Hit will already include any applicable sneak attack and skirmish damage. Which means I could see someone saying that once you find the damage from the Critical Hit you then add on damage for either Skirmish or Sneak Attack.

I am not sure if this feat allows the application of Skirmish without having moved at least 10' or if it allows either Skirmish or Sneak Attack at ranges farther than 30'. I can only assume that it does but I would have liked the way it is worded to have been better.
 

Slaved said:
I believe that the damage from your Critical Hit will already include any applicable sneak attack and skirmish damage. Which means I could see someone saying that once you find the damage from the Critical Hit you then add on damage for either Skirmish or Sneak Attack.

But then it's already true that "you deal your skirmish or sneak attack damage in addition to the damage from your critical hit." It doesn't say that you add it again; it just says that you add it. I suppose I can see the argument that it doesn't say not to add it again in the case where your critical is a valid sneak attack, but really it doesn't address that case at all.

So what is sneak attack? It's precision damage that you add when you are able to fulfill conditions. Telling Blow gives you another way to fulfill conditions. If you fulfill sneak attack conditions twice, do you add it twice? No. (If I am flanking and invisible I don't add sneak attack twice; I just add it once.)
 

Forked from: Wisdom to AC ... twice?

eamon said:
Anyways, completely irrespective of whatever the rule-text of the two blurbs say, don't forget the "behind the curtains" on DMG page 21:

BEHIND THE CURTAIN: STACKING BONUSES

Balance: [sblock]The main reason to keep track of what stacks and what doesn’t stack is to keep total bonuses from getting out of hand. If a character wears a belt of giant Strength, it’s unbalancing to allow the cleric to cast bull’s strength on her as well and allow both bonuses to add up. [...etc...][/sblock] Summary: Disallowing stacking avoids easy loopholes that might provide wildly different power levels.


Consistency and Logic: "The system of bonus types provides a way to make sense out of what can work together and what can’t. At some point, when adding types of protection together, a reasonable player realizes that some protections are just redundant.
This system logically portrays how it all makes sense together." This is the big issue - what's the sense? The swordsage's and the monk's AC bonus seem to model almost the same thing in-game. That you can find similar in-game events modelled by differing game mechanics in the tens of thousands of pages of rules published by WotC does not surprise me. They try to bunch similar concepts into similar "named modifier" buckets. But the in-game world is a little fuzzy and the rules aren't perfect. If you're trying to perform to model the same thing twice, and the mechanics happen to grant different modifiers, that doesn't mean they shouldn't overlap nevertheless.


Encouraging Good Play: [sblock]Categorizing bonuses by type allows players to put together suites of effects that do work in conjunction in a consistent manner—encouraging smart play rather than pile-it-on play.[/sblock] Trying to find multiple rules with the same source (your wisdom) and the same effect (your AC gets better) is definitely pile it on play.


Even if the class abilities had a name, the fact that the in-game justification is so similar, and the fact that the source is similar (your wisdom, presumably due to spot/listen/insight/sense motive/etc) and the effect is identical, should make it clear that these effects are too similar to stack.

I would encourage simply thinking of the actually source of any bonus, if it comes from the character's will power in one class, divine inspiration another, and awareness in another, then yes while they all come from wisdom, they would and should stack. In this case I see that both classes are based on the oriental motief and similarly both character seem dedicated to avoiding damage throw awareness and withstanding damage or gaining some knowledge from psychic powers or divine insight, the bonues seem to be the same bonus, and an insight bonus at that.

Remember a bonus is almost one of the following

[sblock]
Alchemical:An alchemical bonus represents the benefit from


a chemical compound, usually one ingested prior to receiving the

bonus. Antitoxin, for example, provides a +5 alchemical bonus on
Fortitude saving throws against poison.

Armor:




This is the bonus that nonmagical armor gives a character.

A spell that gives an armor bonus typically creates an invisible,

tangible field of force around the affected character.

Circumstance:




This is a bonus or penalty based on situational

factors, which may apply either to a check or the DC for that

check. Circumstance modifiers stack with each other, unless they
arise from essentially the same circumstance.

Competence:




When a character has a competence bonus, he

actually gets better at what he’s doing, such as with the


guidance

spell.

Deflection:




A deflection bonus increases a character’s AC by

making attacks veer off, such as with the


shield of faith spell.

Dodge:


A dodge bonus enhances a character’s ability to get out

of the way quickly. Dodge bonuses do stack with other dodge

bonuses. Spells and magic items occasionally grant dodge bonuses.

Enhancement:




An enhancement bonus represents an increase

in the strength or effectiveness of a character’s armor or weapon,

as with the





magic vestment and magic weapon spells, or a general

bonus to an ability score, such as with the


cat’s grace spell.

Inherent:


An inherent bonus is a bonus to an ability score that

results from powerful magic, such as a


wish spell. A character is

limited to a total inherent bonus of +5 to any ability score.


Insight:




An insight bonus makes a character better at what he’s

doing because he has an almost precognitive knowledge of factors

pertinent to the activity, as with the





true strike spell.

Luck:


A luck bonus is a general bonus that represents good fortune,

such as from the


divine favor spell.

Morale:


A morale bonus represents the effects of greater hope,

courage, and determination, such as from the


bless spell.

Natural Armor:


A natural armor bonus is the type of bonus

that many monsters get because of their tough or scaly hides. An

enhancement to natural armor bonus bestowed by a spell (such as

barkskin




) indicates that the subject’s skin has become tougher.

Profane:


A profane bonus represents the power of evil, such as

granted by the


desecrate spell.

Racial:


Creatures gain racial bonuses—usually to skill

checks—based on the kind of creature they are. Eagles receive a

+8 racial bonus on Spot checks, for example.

Resistance:




A resistance bonus is a general bonus against

magic or harm. Resistance bonuses almost always affect saving

throws.

Sacred:




The opposite of a profane bonus, a sacred bonus relates

to the power of good, such as granted by the


consecrate spell.

Shield:


Much like an armor bonus, a shield bonus to AC represents

the protection a nonmagical shield affords. A spell that gives

a shield bonus usually represents an invisible, tangible shield of
force that moves to protect the character.

Size:




When a character gets bigger (such as through the effect

of an


enlarge person spell), his Strength increases (as might his Constitution).

That’s a size bonus.
[/sblock]
 


I'm helping a friend build a monk for our campaign and he wants to go Monk2/Swordsage2/Shadow Sun Ninja10

Now both the Monk and the Swordsage say to add the WIS modifier to AC but the bonus doesn't seem to be typed. Do this bonus stack with itself from two different classes? My gut tells me no, but I can't find an answer.

A little help?

Monk adds while unarmored and Swordsage while armored. THe two bonuses shall never meet.

Customer service says that Swordsage means light or no armor (even though it says only light armor), but they aren't reliable.
 

That... has to be a typo. Why on earth would it work in light armor but not in no armor? Especially when there's a no-armor class variant suggested right there in the writeup?

Anyway, even aside from that point I'd agree that they don't stack.

Maybe so you don't take a dip into Monk and try to apply your Wis bonus twice?

If someone came to me with a swordsage and wanted to apply Wis to AC unarmored, I'd let it fly... but consider him a fool :p

The text isn't too clear, and its easy to justify it either way. Is the swordsage trained at fighting light in general (none to light armor) or specifically trained to optimize light armor?
 
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Any class ability called "AC Bonus" doesn't stack with itself. Most (not all) say this, but for a definitive answer look here:
Ask Wizards: 06/05/2008

If there were another class with say a "Hot Bonus" that provided Wis to AC, it would stack with Monk, Swordsage, or Ninja's AC Bonus.
 

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