Wisdom???

[Chrono22]

Actually all of D&D's ability scores are somewhat ambiguous. Splitting them into 12 different scores makes them reasonably different IMO

Strength - Might & Stability
Dexterity - Handedness & Nimbleness
Constitution - Endurance & Vitality
Intelligence - Insight & Recollection
Wisdom - Acuity & Willpower
Charisma - Allure & Comeliness

 

[I'm A Banana]

INT is logic. Deductive reasoning. Mathematics. Pyshics. Memorization. INT reveals what is there.

WIS is intuition. Perception. Insight. Instinct. Danger sense. Empathy. WIS reveals what is beneath the surface.

CHA is control. Manipulation. Social acuity. Performance. Trust. CHA changes the way others see you.

I don't think WIS is confusing at all, and I think it has a place as Perception, representing more of an instinctive awareness than a logical deduction. 3e's division of perceptive skills and Search (which was Int-based) represented that fairly well, I think. Spot and Listen help you notice things passively, but when you're actively engaged in detailed observation, it's more about deduction than instinct.

I don't think CHA is confusing, either, and I wouldn't say it's attractiveness or beauty or any of that. I'd say Betty White is charismatic, though I don't think she's attractive, really.

 

[Chrono22]

I'd say since logic is a form of insight, that puts insight solidly under the purview of intelligence. Acuity (the ability to notice details or facts, as opposed to noticing patterns) seems more wisdom-related.
And the assumptions that charisma is related to attractiveness aren't unfounded. It says so in the PHB and this is referenced in other sources.

The ambiguity of D&D ability scores does lead to some implausible situations and it does somewhat limit character concepts. A fat, unbalanced rogue with high manual dexterity is basically impossible when you consider that having a high dex means that both must be high. Same goes for a mighty warrior with poor coordination or a bookish wizard with illogical thought processes. Or a cleric with poor senses but a strong will.
And then, of course if a Balor were to invade your home town, he would appear more physically attractive than any person you've ever seen since charisma is both personal gravity and beauty.

 

[Sadrik]

Give me some hard mechanics here. I am not arguing that wisdom should not exist. Common sense and intuition is a skill called sense motive/insight. Sense motive is a saving throw against lies, it can give you a hunch, it can detect enchantments, it can figure out secret messages.

Wisdom is too broad in its application. It sort of grabs random knowledges and puts them there (Heal, survival, dungeoneering, and profession). About the only skill I think could be argued to be there is sense motive/insight.

3.5 WIS skills
Spot
Listen
Survival
Profession
Heal
Sense Motive

4e adds:
Dungeoneering

So perception, will save, divine magic, knowledge, hunches, lie detection, sensing enchantments, discern secret messages, and psionics (in some editions). To me that seems like a hodgepodge of stuff. It is not like STR, DEX, CON, INT which are all easy to understand and you know what they will mean mechanically. WIS and to a lesser degree CHA you have no idea and it varies based on edition.

Other similar stated games chose to go in a more definitive route. Physical stats in these games are the same but mental stats differ:
Call of Cthulu (intelligence, education, power, appearance)
Traveler (intelligence, education, social standing)
Alternity (intelligence, will, personality)

I think 6 scores is enough to model the game well, I don't think you need anymore than that.

 

[Chrono22]

Then you think that having a mere 6 scores can measure all of the natural ability of a person with a reasonable degree of accuracy... but you are dissatisfied that they are applied too broadly.
It sounds like you want two conflicting things. If you want ambiguous scores that can be applied to a variety of situations and are highly subject to interpretation, then a tristat system would better suite you.
If you want scores to be more narrowly and specifically defined, then you should increase the number of scores.
You can't really have it both ways.

 

[Sadrik]

Then you think that having a mere 6 scores can measure all of the natural ability of a person with a reasonable degree of accuracy... but you are dissatisfied that they are applied too broadly.
It sounds like you want two conflicting things. If you want ambiguous scores that can be applied to a variety of situations and are highly subject to interpretation, then a tristat system would better suite you.
If you want scores to be more narrowly and specifically defined, then you should increase the number of scores.
You can't really have it both ways.

No, I think that 5 of them are generally alright and fit the bill. I think the other one (WIS) is just a catchall in 3e and 4e for stuff that the designers were not sure where to put it (esp. spot, listen, profession). I'd like it nailed down better that is all. Judging from the posts in this thread it is clearly not.

 

[Yabanjin]

Still my favorite explanation:

Wisdom: For game purposes wisdom ability subsumes the categories of willpower, judgment, wile, enlightenment, and intuitiveness. An example of the use of wisdom can be given by noting that while the intelligent character will know that smoking is harmful to him, he may well lack the wisdom to stop (this writer may well fall into this category).

 

[Chrono22]

Originally Posted by Gary Gygax, DMG, 1st Edition Wisdom: For game purposes wisdom ability subsumes the categories of willpower, judgment, wile, enlightenment, and intuitiveness. An example of the use of wisdom can be given by noting that while the intelligent character will know that smoking is harmful to him, he may well lack the wisdom to stop (this writer may well fall into this category).

The biggest problems I have with this, is that judgement, enligtenment, and intuitiveness can't really be approximated on a numeric scale. All three terms are highly subjective to the observer, as are their definitions based on the context of any given scenario.
As the editions have moved forward the ability scores have had less and less to do with any prevailing beliefs or attitudes characters hold, and more to do with raw ability.

 

[Jhaelen]

Imho, Wisdom is pretty well-defined, it's just badly named _and_ used for some things that don't really relate to Wisdom at all.

Just calling it perception goes a long way of clearing things up. I don't see why it's also used to measure willpower. Imho, that's more a function of Charisma.

In other words, I think Charisma is really the ability that isn't well defined.

 

[Maldin]

I agree with what many people are saying about Wisdom and Intelligence... Both are important and meaningful. Intelligence is raw book-smarts, including deductive reasoning, and mathematical accuity. Wisdom is judgement, intuitiveness and enlightenment. I've known many people who have one or the other, but not both.

I disagree with those that choose to lump perception and willpower into one of those, though. I've also known many people who were wise, yet never have the willpower to follow through on what they know to be right. And people who were brilliant scientists, who wouldn't notice a truck barreling down on them, or a colleague shouting at them from down the hall. And yet other people who weren't particularly smart or wise, yet would notice the tiniest fly buzzing near someone else's head or the tiniest scratch on their car.

In my campaign, I solved this conundrum by creating two new stats... Perception and Willpower, and have a webpage describing both (including the reasoning behind them, and their game effect).

Denis, aka "Maldin"
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
Loads of edition-independent Greyhawk goodness... maps, magic, mysteries, mechanics, and more!
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