Wisdom???

[Chrono22]

I think that in a system that has both skills/combat mechanics and attributes, there needs to be a clear distinction between learned experience/ability and innate talent.
Many posters here keep comparing wisdom to higher understanding/enlightenment... but I think that confuses things. IMO, enlightenment/understanding are personality traits a character possesses- but really say nothing about an individual character's capabilities. Same for
an unreasonable elf-hater. He may be extremely cunning, insightful, aware, and he could have a photographic memory. Being enlightened is just like any other personality trait or set of beliefs a character can hold. Being a genius does not mean a person can't make stupid choices, being wise doesn't mean a character cannot be foolhardy.

 

[Turtlejay]

Really, Wisdom? Once I got a grasp on Charisma, I settled on Dexterity being my least favorite stat.

By D&D rules, not only would Usain Bolt be the world's fastest man, but he would be an expert miniature shipbuilder, and probably able to dodge arrows. D&D Dexterity is quickness and fine motor skills rolled into one, with the benefit of making you tougher to hit. WTF?

Wisdom, Intelligence, and Charisma pose less of a problem because they are less defineable. They are all kind of aspects of one singular thing, your inner self.

Jay

 

[xechnao]

they may be able to notice a twig breaking in a wind storm but they may not know what it means, their response may be fear, curiosity or to defend them self. An animal may see a trap and still go into it.

Same is true for humans. Only that humans can write and speak. This is the only difference among humans and animals: Humans have a more comprehensive way to record information and thus communicate it and share it. As with animals, humans still do not know what the world means: they cannot know the future.

Intelligence and wisdom are only relevant qualities about information resources when they can make a difference in people's lifestyles.

You make it sound like a person which has more intelligence or wisdom over something has a different brain structure than someone else. I doubt this is any true.

 

[Chronologist]

For me, Intelligence is raw mental processing power, while Charisma is force of will. Wisdom represents your degree of perception and understanding of the world. It's both how well you see, and how you interpret what you see.

 

[Sadrik]

For me, Intelligence is raw mental processing power, while Charisma is force of will. Wisdom represents your degree of perception and understanding of the world. It's both how well you see, and how you interpret what you see.

I am personally settling into two camps, they are:

This may be the best way to model it.
Move WIS knowledge to INT and move Will save and sanity to CHA. Leaving Perception. This allows animals to be very perceptive.

I do also really like this model.
Move WIS knowledge to INT, move Perception to INT, move divine magic to CHA, leaving Will save and sanity. Making WIS a mental reflection of CON.

Either one would work well.

Insane people should have lower social skills so that really is why I favor the first one over the second. I like the second one though because of the symmetry with the physical stats 2 action stats and 1 defense stat (well DEX is both). Also the second one matches well with 1e/2e and its concept of WIS.

 

[Sammael]

Insane people should have lower social skills

History is full of insane people with excellent social skills and charisma, but fairly low wisdom.

I really don't understand why you are attempting to demote wisdom's role in the game. From the gamist point of view, all attributes need to be balanced in their usefulness. From the simulationist point of view, the more attributes we have, the better we can define the game world.

Here's how I define wisdom in my version of the rules:

Wisdom (Wis)

Wisdom represents your common sense, intuition, empathy, and instincts. It modifies your Initiative and is often used in conjunction with adventuring and social skills (commonly Healing, Insight, Perception, Resolve, Streetwise, and Survival).

Wisdom helps you…

Act faster
Adapt to a planar environment
Assay injuries and provide first aid
Barter, bribe, and work the black market
Be inconspicuous and hide your presence
Communicate basic needs in a language you don't know
Detect magic, poison, and traps
Forage for food and predict weather
Intuit your current position or navigate a maze
Maintain concentration
Notice a hidden or invisible creature
Recognize a hazard or ambush
Read an omen
Sense other people's emotions and motives
Set a trap
Shadow someone

It helps that my skills aren't inherently tied to the attributes (similar to the World of Darkness system). For example, Perception can be used in conjunction with Wis when trying to quickly spot a hidden creature (instinct and common sense), or in conjunction with Int when trying to find a secret door (deductive reasoning and analysis of the environment).

 

[Pseudopsyche]

Many posters here keep comparing wisdom to higher understanding/enlightenment... but I think that confuses things. IMO, enlightenment/understanding are personality traits a character possesses- but really say nothing about an individual character's capabilities.

Agreed. I would say that terms such as Wisdom have a narrower meaning in D&D than in common speech. Honestly, I think the definitions given in the SRD are pretty consistent.

While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings.

So yes, Wisdom is closely related to perception, although it is broader than the D&D skill Perception, which is really an amalgam of Spot and Listen. Age does not confer Wisdom in the D&D sense (well, no more than it also confers Int and Cha in 3.5).

 

[N0Man]

So type A personalities are have more WIS
and type B personalities are more INT
Hmm, I think having a high CHA is more type A

Introspection vs Extrospection is not the same thing at all as the whole "Type A / Type B" stuff...

It is also referred to as "intuitive vs sensing", and kind of cooresponds somewhat to a general preference for analytical, abstract, and theoretical thinking vs practical, literal, and traditional thinking.

Type A/Type B breaks people up into 2 very generalized types. The Myers-Brigg (influenced by Jung) categorizes people based on general preferences between 4 pairs of characteristics, which make up 16 archetypes.

N/S (introspection vs Introspection) is just 1 dimension of analysis. By themselves, they don't really define a level of mental ability, but more what *style* of what form the high mental ability is likely to take when it is present.

That's just the way I like to look at it, and as a general model it actually works reasonably well (at least as any other), and matches the idea of the attributes for the most part, that is Wisdom being associated with Perception(senses), knowledge of the environment around them (Nature), applied hands-on knowledge (Healing) and picking up on subtle social cues (Insight) while while Intelligence is associated with ideas and abstract thinking (Arcana), academic knowledge (History).

Personally, I'd probably swap the abilities associated with Dungeoneering and Religion to follow this theme, but I can live with it as is.

 

[Sadrik]

History is full of insane people with excellent social skills and charisma, but fairly low wisdom.

Ah yes this is true but many of those mild mental afflictions don't need to be modeled. But a severe diagnosis has many people who have a difficult time dealing with the world or being in a social setting. This leads me to believe that sanity and will save could be linked with charisma. Note also though that this is one of my two ideas on where the very divergent WIS parts should go.

 

[Sadrik]

Agreed. I would say that terms such as Wisdom have a narrower meaning in D&D than in common speech. Honestly, I think the definitions given in the SRD are pretty consistent.

I totally agree, that WIS is not what is defined in common terms as WIS. The game rules have a specific meaning for what it is. I think that DEX also exhibits this to a limited degree (hand-eye coordination + agility), Being slightly convoluted is okay imho (it is an RPG after all). WIS is just on a whole other order of convoluted. Again it pulls very disparate pieces together and unifies them under one stat. Imo, it has lost all meaning.

While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings.

So yes, Wisdom is closely related to perception, although it is broader than the D&D skill Perception, which is really an amalgam of Spot and Listen. Age does not confer Wisdom in the D&D sense (well, no more than it also confers Int and Cha in 3.5).

100% agreed. And this also more firmly advises the following:

Move WIS knowledge to INT and move Will save and sanity to CHA. Leaving Perception. This allows animals to be very perceptive.