Wish spells

[Artoomis]

I disagree. If you worded a perfectly clear wish to kill a greater god, it wouldn't just happen. You might be tranported to the god and buffed in some way, but the clear wording of a wish doesn't mean it will happen. Another example would be inherant bonuses. You only get a single +1 inherent bonus with a single wish, so a single wish couldn't grant more than a single inherent +1 to a stat.

Wish is a good stepping stone, but it is far from end-all and be-all. What would we need epic casting for then?

Well, some things may never be granted, but you may wish for anything. If it's not on the specific list, anythig can, and likely will, happen.

Nothing is technically outside the power of a wish, though. It's all up to the DM once you get outside the preset list, though.

Your example of wishing for the death of a god is a perfect one. The wish was granted, just not in the way you wanted.

 

[kreynolds]

You only get a single +1 inherent bonus with a single wish, so a single wish couldn't grant more than a single inherent +1 to a stat.

Again, worth noting...

You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous.

Nothing states that you can't wish for a +5 inherent bonus to Strength with a single wish spell. What it _does_ say, however, is that you can't do it safely.

Wish is a good stepping stone, but it is far from end-all and be-all. What would we need epic casting for then?

Epic casting isn't that epic (but that's irrelevant, I know, and just my opinion anyway ). What _is_ relevant, however, is that unless specifically designed to be unsafe for the caster, epic magic is not as dangerous when going outside the normal limitations of magic in comparison to when you go outside the normal limitations of a wish.

 

[LokiDR]

Your example of wishing for the death of a god is a perfect one. The wish was granted, just not in the way you wanted.

That's just it. The god will most likely squish you like a bug, you really don't have a chance. How is the wish really being granted? It has only been partiall granted (what the spell does when you push it) not really granted.

Wait, this is becoming an english arguement. Nevermind.

 

[Artoomis]

Now for some specific suggestions:

1. As above - the artifact appears, but so do its powerful evil owners.

2. It's location is revealed - a major quest.

3. The artifact appears, as does its very powerful good owner. The result is that a major victory for evil happens, as the artifact and its owner were unavailable at the crucial time to turn the tide of the battle.

4. The Efreet is not powerful enough for granting wishes, as he would simply wish himself free of the shackles.

5. The artifact appears in the hand of a PC, but it is not a minor artifact, but a major one with an Ego of 50 and a purpose that is definately in not aligned with the party.

And on and on...

P.S. Wording is pretty much a non-issue. There is absolutely no way to word a wish that it cannot be twisted in some way.

 

[Artoomis]

That's just it. The god will most likely squish you like a bug, you really don't have a chance. How is the wish really being granted? It has only been partiall granted (what the spell does when you push it) not really granted.

Wait, this is becoming an english arguement. Nevermind.

You're right - it's just semantics. The point is that you may wish for anything. What happens depends upon the power of what you want.

I don't ever say that something is outside the power of a wish - better to let the PCs wish away and let the chips fall where they may!

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

Thanks all for your comments. I think that it says in the MM that efreet cannot grant wishes to genies, presumabely including themselves. As it turned out, it didn't matter, because one of the party died and the character sacrificed his Wish to raise him. Also in the efreet description, it says that if you can subdue an efreeti, it must grant you the Wishes. The party reduced him to negative HP, shackled him, Cured him to 0 HP, and held him at the point of the cleric/fighter's Holy bastard sword. That's pretty darn subdued

 

[kreynolds]

I think that it says in the MM that efreet cannot grant wishes to genies, presumabely including themselves.

Correct. "— grant up to three wishes (to nongenies only)"

 

[AuraSeer]

The wish spell can attempt anything, but it does have a few important limitations.

Unwilling victims still get the benefit of saving throws, SR, and any other defenses they have. Wish for the death of a greater god? You just duplicated slay living with extraplanar range. Even if deities weren't immune to death effects, you wouldn't manage to penetrate SR. Fizzle.

The request must be specified in terms the caster (character) would understand. You can't wish for a "+10 inherent bonus to Intelligence", because the numeric ability scores don't exist in the game world. You can wish to be "smarter", but because there's no meaningful way to specify a magnitude, you get the normal +1 from using a single wish.

Also remember that you must pay any XP cost over 5k, or provide any material component worth more than 25k. Wish for the creation of an artifact? That process either has a very high material cost-- half the market price of the artifact-- or requires a specific, expensive power component. (If you can find a 100k gp diamond that has been blessed by a glabrezu paladin, cursed by a planetar blackguard, meditated upon by a slaadi monk, and then crushed to powder by the rage of a modron barbarian, you can go right ahead and wish for the Codex of Infinite Planes.)

Since I don't like to arbitrarily screw the players, I always inform them when they probably won't get quite what they're asking for. I do give more leeway to creative and fun requests than to egregiously selfish ones, but that's just me.

 

[Li Shenron]

The point is that you may wish for anything. What happens depends upon the power of what you want.

I don't ever say that something is outside the power of a wish - better to let the PCs wish away and let the chips fall where they may!

I second your view.

Besides, what if a 1000th level Wizard casts a Wish and wishes for a deity to die? Or what if another greater deity casts the same Wish? It's really up to the DM. In someone's cosmology deities don't die ever, no matter who wishes it. Or the DM could just grant such a Wish, but the effect won't happen before the end of the whole cosmos?

 

[RingXero]

I second your view.

Besides, what if a 1000th level Wizard casts a Wish and wishes for a deity to die? Or what if another greater deity casts the same Wish? It's really up to the DM. In someone's cosmology deities don't die ever, no matter who wishes it. Or the DM could just grant such a Wish, but the effect won't happen before the end of the whole cosmos?

I would say that a 1000th level Wizard would be casting something alot more powerful than a 9th level wish spell.

I would also approach a wish spell granted by casting the spell, or from a scroll differently than a wish spell granted by an entity. Mainly, that the wish spell would be more easily 'twisted' to meet the desires of the creature providing the spell.


RX