Witcher as a fighter/mage subclass

[Minicol]

You guys are going for something way too complicated, I think.

From the books and the video games :

Witchers are some sort of "Witch hunter" fighters, specialized in killing undead and aberrations.

They come from human stock, and are mutated in childhood.

They fight very well (fighter BAB)
They have amazing reflexes, as mentioned repetedly (lightning reflexes for free at lvl 1), and possibly a minimum of 16 dex (to be taken from your creation points). They have the rogue progression to relfexes.
They have immunity to diseases, but not to poisons (mentioned nowhere I could see)

I'd say in 3.5 terms they have a d8, as they do not seem as resistant a s a typical knight, in Pathfinder that would be a D10.

The main problem IMHO is their magic, as defined in the video game at least, does not fit too well the d&D rules.

They have 5 magic signs, which seem to be a catch-all powers relating to the four elements and necromancy. They don't necessarily START knowing all five of them however.

In short, they are a variant of Paladin, with limited arcane rather than divine power, and I'd make them a CORE class.

Hmm ... this got me thinking ... I will post again on this.

EDIT : Yay ! my 400th post

 

[ruemere]

Hmm. Since I've read quite a few books by Andrzej Sapkowski (including both shorts stories and novels on Geralt, the wiedzmin from whom everything started), I'd like to offer a few comments.

Basic information from Wikipedia (quite exhaustive):
Wiedzmin (Polish)
Witcher (English)

... and licensed computer game based on that:
Witcher, the computer game official website (English) - it's a recommendable starting experience (and rather faithful portrayal of the game world and characters - warning - mature content)

Several important points:

1. Witcher is for mature people. Killing monsters is usually secondary to moral and ethical problems. I think that the correct term for the genre is fantasy noir - violence, vices and weakness are most prominent elements of portrayed world.

2. Chief witcher, Geralt, is not just a walking monster killer for hire. He is a sterile mutant (though capable of performing sexually), scarred psychically from his twisted training, prone to bouts of depression and always a little apprehensive of the terrifying killing skills. Other important bits of knowledge:
- his aging is slowed down by his mutation.
- mutated pupils, pale complexion, white hair.

3. Witcher's chilling proficiency in killing is the result of:
- enhanced natural reflexes and healing ability,
- abuse of speed and strength and sense enhancing drugs,
- training in sword, chain combat styles (in the very first story, Geral is using his unique fighting style to mesmerize and confuse his opponent),
- ability to use symbols, basic magic abilities allowing for hurting or keeping monsters at bay,
- extensive training on monster habits and weaknesses (witchers don't fight fair - they always attempt to secure situational advantage).
- special combat training allowing to react to attacks without conscious thinking - the witcher reacts with a series of offensive and defensive manoeuvers. The downside of the training is that the witcher cannot pull punches in combat and always fights with a killing intent - in fact, there are several passages indicating that once sufficiently provoked witcher does not stop until performing at least several killing strikes. For example, one of the main characters commits suicide by attacking witcher and not defending herself against automatic murderous riposte. Another example is that in order to lose a fight (and die) to a human swordsman, the witcher intentionally comes unarmed - his training kicks in, but proves ineffective due to lack of weapons.

4. Witcher equipment:
- two swords, one normal, one made of silver (silver in Witcher's world is more effective against most monsters) - the silver sword damages easily, so the witcher uses it only in special cases,
- silver items,
- magic medallion in the form of silver wolf head (check the wiki page for rendering of one),
- large arsenal of drugs and herbs (some of the drugs are usually poisonous to normal humans)

5. Witcher vs game world.
- most of the stories deal with people attempting to use Witcher skills to their own ends - some monsters appear to be punishment inflicted on people for their sins. By killing them, Witcher sometimes becomes a party to a crime (samples: incest and accompnying curse[the very first story on witcher], mass murder, broken pledges, racial purges and so on). Andrzej Sapkowski often highlights associated moral dilemmas.
- Witchers follow strict code, however the division between monsters and humans/intelligent beings is often blurry. Human beings often prove to as evil as monsters.
- people are usually apprehensive of witchers - the act of killing comes to the all to easily, though, unless given a reason, witcher will never break a codex and attack a human.
- elves are an older race, disappearing from the world. Often bitter, spiteful, hateful of human beings. Often degenerate. One fraction is known for performing terrorist acts.
- other intelligent races - usually also slowly fading into background of encroaching humanity: gnomes, dwarves and rarer ones.
- amorality - numerous important characters act amorally or base their decisions on their needs instead of trying to follow some code of ethics. Common trait of rulers, wizards and prominent characters of the stories.
- betrayal
- authority is usually based on strength of arms instead of order or culture
- abuse of power, abuse of the weak and persecution of minorities are constant themes

Finally, Witchers enter the game world after extensive training. Their starting level should be 5-7th at least and, given their superiority, it's hard to imagine them as regular player characters. These guys are supposed to take on monsters in one-on-one combat, win and survive in the world without easy access to healing.

regards,
Ruemere

 

[stonegod]

Hmm. Since I've read quite a few books by Andrzej Sapkowski (including both shorts stories and novels on Geralt, the wiedzmin from whom everything started), I'd like to offer a few comments.

++All the Above. My wife is Polish and loves all the books (btw, "Vedmak" is a derogatory form of the made up Wiedzmin). We always translated it as "hexer".

I think the *concept* behind the hexblade class in 3.5's CompWar makes a good fit here. I think in 4E, a multi-class fighter/warlock (esp w/ the curses) would work, *maybe* the swordmage form 4E FRCS (can't say as its not out yet).

Last Wish (Ostatnie życzenie, the first collection of short stories) is the only one in English to date. Apparently, they're skipping Sword of Destiny (Miecz przeznaczenia) is not coming out in English (I'm guessing since it was part of that awful movie adaptation?); too bad, its got some of my favorite stories in it. Next one in English is Blood of the Elves (Krew elfów) in Sept 08, which starts the series proper.

 

[Someone]

also of note, (and these are SPOILERS, so if plan to read the books skip this post) Gealt ends "adopting" a young human girl called Ciri for her own protection; in the third book she's taken to the ruined castle where new wtchers are, hm, made, and trained there though not transformed into one of them (the process works IIRC only on male humans) Ciri becomes quite profcient at the witcher's fighting style and acrobatics.

I would model the witcher as it's own race, given how they differ form normal humans and as a prestige class with requirements of high BAB and knlowledges, seeing how even one of them, even unexperienced, is a fearsome fighter on his own.

 

[mrswing]

The witcher doesn't readily fit into the D&D paradigm, as he's extremely good at fighting, acrobatics, and alchemy (making potions to enhance his gifts). On top of which he has runestones which contain a number of powers as well.He's pretty superheroic and (in the PC game) takes on whole armies of foes armed only with a sword and wearing leather armor. His magical rune powers do not go as far as high-level D&D magic though, topping out at spells of +/- level 4, I would guess.

So either a template which has a hefty LA or a gestalt would get closest, but honestly, I think a system like HERO or GURPS (or SW perhaps, with less detail) and a hefty amount of starting points would be the best way to replicate the character/profession/class.

Very good PC game if you can get past the glitches, BTW.

 

[netnomad]

The Witcher is a good game and I like the Stories. A US Collection of short stories was just released and Amazon has it for sale. The first novel length book called "the Blood of Elves" is Due next year. I think it's already available in the UK.

The closed thing 4e has to Geralt is the swordmage.

 

[mmu1]

Jake Norwood, who wrote the Riddle of Steel RPG, was actually trying to make melee combat feel similar to what you'd find in Andrzej Sapkowski's Witcher novels - and I think he succeeded.

Unfortunately, this makes combat so lethal it's really not suited to playing a D&D style game.

Though Witchers in general don't really fit into D&D that well - unless you water them down so much that they have little in common with the literary version besides the name. Like someone already pointed out, you're basically talking about 6th level + characters (at a bare minimum) with enough special abilities to have an ECL of +2 or +3.

If you wanted to make one, though, I'd say you'd probably be better off representing them as a single class oriented towards combat with a handful of 3/day spell-like abilities - IIRC the use of Signs is draining, and they don't really use them over and over.

Maybe even give them something like the Cleric's turning attempts per day, and make the Signs feats which let them channel those in different ways. You could also probably give them a basic use that's accessible without any additional feats other than the basic Witcher training that lets you sharpen your senses or give yourself a big boost to initiative for the next encounter.

 

[mrswing]

The basic thing to remember is that Witchers are superhuman monster hunters. They start off far more powerful than normal humans, and augment their abilities with all sorts of drugs and potions (fantasy steroids, I guess...).
And they're really good at drinking, gambling and wenching too. Typical East-European males, then .

 

[Rallek]

I actually have a player in the E6 game I am currently running playing a witcher. He really enjoyed the PC game, and wanted to give it a shot in a table top setting. We worked at making it a base class for awhile, but realized that unless we watered it way down it was too powerful.

So what we did was allow all of the other players to select two classes and take the "best" options of each. So we have a fighter/thief which has a rogue's skill points, fighter BAB and HD, strong fort and ref saves, and so on. The other characters are also combinations of this type. Luckily he expressed his desire to play a witcher while our last campaign was winding down, so there was plenty of time to design/retool the new setting for broader characters of this type.


Our witcher is based on a monk, D8 hp per level, bonus to AC based on Wis and Lvl, and with his "signs" replacing all of a monk's class features, except improved unarmed strike. He is proficient with light armor.

At each level he gains an "upgrade" to an existing sign or the ability to learn a new one, he can use his feat at 1st, 3rd, and 6th level to also increase/learn a sign if he so chooses. As far as his potions go, he has a witcher only skill; "Witcher's Alchemy (int)" which allows him to craft potions for himself using plants and monster bits. Each potion has a toxicity rating based on the strength of its effect. Maximum toxicity is determined by lvl+ con mod. Non-witchers gain no benefit from these potions, as they lack the alchemically augmented physiology to metabolize them properly. To the rest of the party, his potions are just poisons.

Signs work in a way similar to psionics, with wis as the governing stat for bonus points.

So while Geralt was good at everything, our witcher class suffers heavily from MAD, and you have to pick your focus more carefully. He went combat heavy and dabbles in potions a bit, but his lower int keeps the really nasty ones out of his reach. Of course his higher con lets him drink a fair number to gear up for a fight. He knows three signs currently, and only really uses two regularly. Naturally, those are at a higher level.


So that's a brief sketch of the witcher (from the PC game) as we saw him. Perhaps not the best attempt, but the player is having a blast with it, and that's what matters, I suppose.

 

[robertliguori]

You guys are going for something way too complicated, I think.

From the books and the video games :

Witchers are some sort of "Witch hunter" fighters, specialized in killing undead and aberrations.

They come from human stock, and are mutated in childhood.

They fight very well (fighter BAB)
They have amazing reflexes, as mentioned repetedly (lightning reflexes for free at lvl 1), and possibly a minimum of 16 dex (to be taken from your creation points). They have the rogue progression to relfexes.
They have immunity to diseases, but not to poisons (mentioned nowhere I could see)

I'd say in 3.5 terms they have a d8, as they do not seem as resistant a s a typical knight, in Pathfinder that would be a D10.

The main problem IMHO is their magic, as defined in the video game at least, does not fit too well the d&D rules.

They have 5 magic signs, which seem to be a catch-all powers relating to the four elements and necromancy. They don't necessarily START knowing all five of them however.

In short, they are a variant of Paladin, with limited arcane rather than divine power, and I'd make them a CORE class.

Hmm ... this got me thinking ... I will post again on this.

EDIT : Yay ! my 400th post

For their class abilities, I suggest starting with ranger, but replacing spellcasting with limited martial abilities from the Bo9S. You can get away with the mutations as a +1 LA template, I'd bet; start with Lloth-blooded and switch boni and immunities as desired.