Wiz18 Lich vs. four 12th level characters

[TheAuldGrump]

Ewo questions that have not been addressed - Why no minions? and Why no gear? A liche is a spellcaster, used to having grunts like fighters around to suck up the damage. And you just don't get to be 18th level without acquiring the trappings. Drop him down to level 12, putting him at CR 14, and give him the gear to match, it becomes a more enjoyable encounter for both you and your players. Count the plot device as part of his treasure if you must, but do not shortchange him.

The Auld Grump

 

[Arnwyn]

Ewo questions that have not been addressed - Why no minions? and Why no gear?

Like I said, it's irrelevant to the original premise. I'm just looking for insight based on what people think might occur (especially if it's based on one's experience - though, of course, not based on any experience based on this specific example, which is unlikely). Just an idea based on what a high-level lich relied on more than others.

This thread has been very much helpful in what information I'm looking for.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Like I said, it's irrelevant to the original premise.

But it's not. If you have an immortal NPC of a class that has, as one of its primary attributes, the ability to a) create magical items and b) summon/create/raise servants and allies, tossing that out the window essentially changes what sort of NPC we're talking about. Asking about what sort of threat a naked level 18 fighter poses is interesting in theory, I guess, but once it moves to the realm of practicality (i.e. "I'm going to throw a naked level 18 fighter at them in my next game"), the questions of why become important to fully answering the question ("Can he grab a chair to use as a shield and fight with a table leg as an improvised club?").

In addition, when you come asking for help, it's a two-way street. Just as you're under no obligation to answer our questions, so to no one is under any obligation to share information and ideas with you. But answering those questions is almost certain to loosen tongues and encourage people to share with you.

 

[Arnwyn]

But it's not. If you have an immortal NPC of a class that has, as one of its primary attributes, the ability to a) create magical items and b) summon/create/raise servants and allies, tossing that out the window essentially changes what sort of NPC we're talking about.

Indeed - and like I said: it doesn't matter, based on what information I'm looking for.

In addition, when you come asking for help, it's a two-way street. Just as you're under no obligation to answer our questions, so to no one is under any obligation to share information and ideas with you. But answering those questions is almost certain to loosen tongues and encourage people to share with you.

That's their perogative, of course. I'm just looking for insight based on the original premise - that's all. Everything else is indeed irrelevant and not what I'm looking for. People can make their decision on whether to post or not based on that. (And no fear about "loosening tongues" - that's already been done very well already. This thread has been great!)

 

[ThirdWizard]

I agree its irrelevent. It could only lead to tangents unrelated to the question being asked. The last thing we need to get into a discussion about is reasonable wealth guidelines of NPCs for DMs to follow.

You said he would have no minions present with him. Does that mean there are no minions in the castle, or just none will be present in the encounter with the lich? What about traps? Basically, are we expecting nearly fresh PCs or ones that have been beaten down a bit, or a lot? If they're going to run into 2 equal CR encounters, for example, before facing the lich, you might want to tone it down a bit. If they're going to be near full strength, you should be able to make him 3-4 CR above the PC party without expecting a TPK.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Even a lich doesn't necessarily know everything. If the PCs are cautious about showing off their magic, the lich might not recognize that they can cast Anti-Magic Field. And that is probably their only chance to defeat the lich. The caster (or rogue with scroll) somehow gets to grapple the lich, or sticks close enough to it that it can't get out to cast a spell. Perhaps by this point you've lost one or two PCs to a diversion in order to get your AMF caster close enough. The survivors can probably defeat a lich in an AMF.

I think the AMF negates the lich's damage reduction and paralyzing touch.

 

[Darkness]

My bad. For some reason I recalled the lich template as being +4 CR.

Maybe because it has +4 LA.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Like I said, it's irrelevant to the original premise. I'm just looking for insight based on what people think might occur (especially if it's based on one's experience - though, of course, not based on any experience based on this specific example, which is unlikely). Just an idea based on what a high-level lich relied on more than others.

This thread has been very much helpful in what information I'm looking for.

The problem is that without a reason it is just a dumb encounter, making no sense. Much like the 'A bomb in a bull' encounter that was mocked in Dragon Magazine a few years ago. It is always better to play an encounter to the best of its abilities rather than 'what will happen if they encounter a hill giant with its foot nailed to the floor and one arm in a sling' type ones.

The Auld Grump

 

[Arnwyn]

The problem is that without a reason it is just a dumb encounter, making no sense.

Maybe so, but then, it doesn't matter. People who feel that way will have nothing to offer this particular thread, then. That's okay. Other people have been doing just fine.

I agree its irrelevent. It could only lead to tangents unrelated to the question being asked.

Bingo.

 

[domino]

Bomb in a bull. That's funny.