Wiz18 Lich vs. four 12th level characters

[Anson Caralya]

My original estimation is that he would be about CR 16 (as opposed to CR 20) with no magic items.

I would guess a complete lack of magic gear would be a -2 hit to CR. For a humanoid, I might say -3, but an undead already has a lot of special abilities and qualities that they don't need to get from items. So, if this is meant to be a very challenging encounter for 12th level characters, I'd go with a lich Wiz15 (15 + 2 -2 = 15, 3 over party's level).

 

[Brother MacLaren]

There are a few reasons why a lich might be without minions or equipment. The most obvious is that the PCs (or something else) have just freed it from some sort of imprisonment. Oops. Give the lich the Eschew Materials feat in this case.

Or perhaps the lich has been destroyed a few times in recent years by greater heroes - losing most of its equipment but being regenerated by the phylactery, which nobody has yet managed to find. Maybe it doesn't like intelligent minions because they could plot against it or give away its plans through incompetence, so it only uses mindless minions - which are generally not much of a threat to a 12th-level party.

The premise doesn't need to be explained, but it isn't absurd.

 

[Conaill]

Sure, I can think of reasons why a lich might be without minions or magic items. But pretty much all of those would have an important impact on what spells the Lich has prepared and/or what other preparations it has made.

So no, It's not really irrelevant...

 

[LightPhoenix]

I agree its irrelevent. It could only lead to tangents unrelated to the question being asked. The last thing we need to get into a discussion about is reasonable wealth guidelines of NPCs for DMs to follow.

Which has already happened, what with the debate over whether or not it's irrelevant.

Someone already brought up the DC of the Lich's spells. Here's another problem... at 18th level, are the characters going to be able to punch through all his natural defenses? His saves will be quite a bit higher, and the damage resistance is going to be rough. Not only will the Lich have a significant advantage hurting the characters, but the characters will be at a significant disadvantage for dealing damage.

I think a 15th-level Lich might work better... it would be tough, but not entirely unwinnable, I think. I loved the diplomacy set-up someone wrote above.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Which has already happened, what with the debate over whether or not it's irrelevant.

At least I tried!

Last lich the PCs met, he was in really bad condition, but he seemed so imposing to him that they didn't even consider a fight. He's ancient, truly truly ancient, and has been trapped in his phyllactery for thousands and thousands of years without being close enough to a body to take over. He also had the unfortunate fate of being in the body of the closest body to finally be nearby: a skum.

He had no magical items, not even a spellbook! I had him down on spells with no means to replenish them. But, the PCs were so scared they didn't even fight (only 7th level after all!). Now they don't think he's all that evil since he didn't kill them. Silly PCs. Liches can make some awesome roleplaying encounters.

Doesn't seem like that's what you want exactly, but just to tangent off on it. Oh, and if he has no items he might not have a spellbook. Clerical liches are fun, too, though. You get to get into the whole dark evil god, blah blah blah stuff.

 

[Conaill]

Oh, and if he has no items he might not have a spellbook.

Excellent point! Could we at least get the answer to this little "detail"?

 

[Arnwyn]

Could we at least get the answer to this little "detail"?

Yes, he has spellbook(s). (Though I don't consider that a magic item, and I don't think the SRD does, either. Yay, big 15 gp!)

So no, It's not really irrelevant...

Yeah, it is, for my needs.

are the characters going to be able to punch through all his natural defenses? His saves will be quite a bit higher, and the damage resistance is going to be rough. Not only will the Lich have a significant advantage hurting the characters, but the characters will be at a significant disadvantage for dealing damage.

Interesting. I didn't think this was going to be much of a concern. A 12th level party has pretty decent magic gear, and the DR (15/bludgeoning and magic) doesn't seem that much of a roadblock... and the AC of a lich is pretty abysmal. Liches (and/or wizards) only have good Will saves, too.

I didn't think that the defenses were all that much for a 12th level party, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[ThirdWizard]

The trick is rarely in hitting the lich's AC (at least for those with full BABs), but in making it to the lich so that one can attack because of fly, gaseous form, ethereal jaunt, etc.. Also, mirror image, blur, displacement, greater invisibility, and such make it difficult even after you've gotten within melee range of the lich.

 

[Arnwyn]

The trick is rarely in hitting the lich's AC (at least for those with full BABs), but in making it to the lich so that one can attack because of fly, gaseous form, ethereal jaunt, etc.. Also, mirror image, blur, displacement, greater invisibility, and such make it difficult even after you've gotten within melee range of the lich.

Indeed - but really, what wizard (even of, for example, 12th level) won't have mirror image, blur, displacement, and greater invisibility? I think that's standard issue wizard defenses that at least allows it to last a couple of seconds vs. a party of 4 well-equipped adventurers. I think it's an absolute minimum, personally.

Is that what LightPhoenix was talking about?

 

[ThirdWizard]

Indeed - but really, what wizard (even of, for example, 12th level) won't have mirror image, blur, displacement, and greater invisibility? I think that's standard issue wizard defenses that at least allows it to last a couple of seconds vs. a party of 4 well-equipped adventurers. I think it's an absolute minimum, personally.

Well, the higher the level, the less those slots mean to you.
An 11th level lich throwing those down has spent a fair amount of his prepped spells on defense. A 15th level wizard less so. If the PCs are really really sneaky, though, they might be able to bypass any warnings that he will get of their approach. If they're really really sneaky! But, still, I think 15th or 16th is a good level for this encounter. One PC might die, but that just makes it more fun.

Is that what LightPhoenix was talking about?

No clue, but it did sound more like his natural saves, DR, undead traits, etc.