Wizard Spells 10-16 Two Page Spread

[hong]

But "hit" and "miss" are also 4th Edition keywords, and Wall of Ice doesn't use the hit/miss mechanic. So the minion can't be hit by the Wall of Ice effect, because the Wall of Ice neither hits nor misses, it merely deals damage.

-Hyp.

Perhaps one side-effect of reversing the "take the DM out of the equation" philosophy will be to eliminate the legalistic argumentation on irrelevant points of detail that consumes so many of our best minds today.

Or maybe not.

 

[mach1.9pants]

I agree, defying the conventions of physical reality is the most enjoyable part of playing a magic using character. This fly spell is weak sauce indeed. Perhaps there are feats, or paragon paths that can grant the equivalent of 3.5's overland flight. If so, ok, if not, I'll be skipping 4th edition.

Man, you are going to miss the entire 4E thing if it doesn't have overland flight? Well that is some serious love for one spell!
My money is on it being a paragon ritual and an epic power, once you are epic youwill be whipping around the world and planes at ease...

 

[Ahglock]

The reason you find natural challenges to be a waste of time is specifically because of having spells such as Fly show up comparatively early in the game. You stop using them specifically because they are completely ineffective.

3rd edition, and previous edition, did a crappy job of balancing non combat spells against combat spells. With Silence, Invisibility, and Knock being 2nd level spells, and Spider climb showing up at 1st level, what exactly do you need a traditional thief / rogue for? You may not like the idea of nerfing the spell casting classes, but I would rather see them beaten into submission with a nerf bat than have them overshadow every class that does not use spells.

END COMMUNICATION

Thanks for telling people why they think a certain way.

I don't know why he thought natural challenges to be a waste of time but i know why I do. Unless the natural challenge is in the absurd, I can probably deal with it. So whopedy freakin do, my bad ass adventurer knows how to camp when its stormy, he can climb things, and look he doesn't drown easy. Great, I'll start waking up when we get to real heroic challenges, not lame ass TV drama "susie got caught in the storm, lassie" stuff.

And hey maybe the wizard never overshadowed people in his games because the DM knew how to deal with things.

I want the wizard to have solutions to the pit, the storm, the cliff, the bad guys, the sneaking, the froilaven, I want all the classes too.

 

[hong]

Thanks for telling people why they think a certain way.

I don't know why he thought natural challenges to be a waste of time but i know why I do. Unless the natural challenge is in the absurd, I can probably deal with it. So whopedy freakin do, my bad ass adventurer knows how to camp when its stormy, he can climb things, and look he doesn't drown easy. Great, I'll start waking up when we get to real heroic challenges, not lame ass TV drama "susie got caught in the storm, lassie" stuff.

And hey maybe the wizard never overshadowed people in his games because the DM knew how to deal with things.

This is technically known as "putting the cart before the horse".

I want the wizard to have solutions to the pit, the storm, the cliff, the bad guys, the sneaking, the froilaven, I want all the classes too.

The wizard does have solutions. He can climb, jump, swim, stealth, perceive, survive (well, maybe not) like everyone else.

 

[Stalker0]

The wizard does have solutions. He can climb, jump, swim, stealth, perceive, survive (well, maybe not) like everyone else.

And the great thing is, he'll actually be somewhat competant at these!!

 

[SoulStorm]

Man, you are going to miss the entire 4E thing if it doesn't have overland flight? Well that is some serious love for one spell!
My money is on it being a paragon ritual and an epic power, once you are epic youwill be whipping around the world and planes at ease...

Well, considering the fact that I've only ever played one game to epic level that doesn't exactly make me feel very secure.

But yes, I like overland flight that much. I don't even care if a character has to hyper-specialize to get it. In fact, I would actually consider that better. It would make flight much more rare and special. Maybe you have to be an air elemental savant to get persistent flight, or you need a feat chain to improve the flight spell to make it persistent. If such options exist, I'm good to go. Otherwise...not so much. I don't play fantasy games to be constrained by the same rules as conventional reality. I play fantasy games to take a vacation from reality. Otherwise, what's the point? I may as well play monopoly.

And overland flight is just one example. What about water breathing, or shape-shifting? Abilities that allow characters to explore their environment or form in ways that we can't are what fantasy is all about. Sure, combat can be fun, but I'd much rather role-play the weather mage who loves flying through storms, or the druid who loves turning into a shark in order to explore the ocean depths. If 4th edition can't simulate those character concepts, I'm not interested.

 

[hong]

But yes, I like overland flight that much. I don't even care if a character has to hyper-specialize to get it. In fact, I would actually consider that better. It would make flight much more rare and special. Maybe you have to be an air elemental savant to get persistent flight, or you need a feat chain to improve the flight spell to make it persistent. If such options exist, I'm good to go. Otherwise...not so much. I don't play fantasy games to be constrained by the same rules as conventional reality. I play fantasy games to take a vacation from reality. Otherwise, what's the point? I may as well play monopoly.

Did you just call 4E too mundane?

And overland flight is just one example. What about water breathing, or shape-shifting? Abilities that allow characters to explore their environment or form in ways that we can't are what fantasy is all about. Sure, combat can be fun, but I'd much rather role-play the weather mage who loves flying through storms, or the druid who loves turning into a shark in order to explore the ocean depths. If 4th edition can't simulate those character concepts, I'm not interested.

One of the core precepts of 4E is to remove/reduce instances where only one character can do stuff, sidelining the other characters. So, unless your weather mage and sharky druid obtain their weathery and sharky powers in a manner available to everyone, that's right out.

Mang, specialist players got teh shaft in 4E.

 

[sukael]

One of the core precepts of 4E is to remove/reduce instances where only one character can do stuff, sidelining the other characters. So, unless your weather mage and sharky druid obtain their weathery and sharky powers in a manner available to everyone, that's right out.

Given a mention of flying carpets being a 17th-level item (or somewhere around there), and fly being a 16th-level power, I'm wondering if they're pushing back new-movement-mode spells to the point where other party members might feasibly be able to keep up with magic items.

 

[hong]

Given a mention of flying carpets being a 17th-level item (or somewhere around there), and fly being a 16th-level power, I'm wondering if they're pushing back new-movement-mode spells to the point where other party members might feasibly be able to keep up with magic items.

Well, that was basically the reason for the Christmas tree in 3.5: so that mundane classes could keep up with spellcasters and their plot-device magic. The plot-device magic isn't really going away, it's just been kicked upstairs (and nerfed). Thus you'll no doubt still have winged boots, helms of teleport and the like, but they won't show up until the later tiers.

 

[TwinBahamut]

I really like the idea that flying mounts are better for combat flight than simple spells, at least for many characters. In previous editions, flying mounts were essentially pointless, even though they are one of the more interesting ways of having flying characters. If it takes a severe nerf of spell-based flight for that to be achieved, then I am very happy to see the Fly spell nerfed.

Having a flying mount is (or at least should be) a significant investment of a character concept. While a Wizard will probably never be remembered or identified as being "the guy who uses the fly spell", it is very easy to imagine a fighter being known as "the Griffin Knight" because he rides a griffin into battle. I think it is a good thing to reward the kinds if things that lead to that kind of unique character identity.

Besides, in pretty much every one of my favorite videogames I use as D&D inspiration (Fire Emblem, Suikoden, etc), the only people who can fly are the people who either are born with wings, ride a winged creature, or have a character-defining specialization in transforming into a flying creature. Flight is a powerful, character defining ability that, in other games, is never handed out as lightly as it is in D&D.