Wizard Spells 10-16 Two Page Spread

[Lizard]

Cleave And Mirror Image

I just noticed something -- Cleave automatically does (a little) damage to an adjacent target, no attack made.

Does this mean mirror image is useless when you're a victim of a cleave? That makes precious little sense; you'd be pretty likely to hit the 'wrong' wizard when swinging madly.

I wonder how 'no attack roll' powers like cleave interact with 'bonus to defense' powers, if there's anything we're missing, or if they're just 'free rides' that go through any kind of defense bonus. (The damage from cleave is low, but it seems like it might sometimes make sense to attack a weak foe so as to score free damage on a hard-to-hit one. Does anyone know how incorporeality works in 4e?)

 

[AllisterH]

I just noticed something -- Cleave automatically does (a little) damage to an adjacent target, no attack made.

Does this mean mirror image is useless when you're a victim of a cleave? That makes precious little sense; you'd be pretty likely to hit the 'wrong' wizard when swinging madly.

Hmm?

Wouldn't one be more likely to accidently hit the right target with a wild swing than a precise attack against one of the images?

The images are all alike so an area attack or a wild swing that hits more than 1 is the best offense versus mirror image IMO.

 

[Lizard]

Hmm?

Wouldn't one be more likely to accidently hit the right target with a wild swing than a precise attack against one of the images?

The images are all alike so an area attack or a wild swing that hits more than 1 is the best offense versus mirror image IMO.

So he actually hit all of them, and only the wizard takes damage? Then wouldn't the other images vanish?

I'd houserule it to randomly determine what he struck, and if he hit an image, it vanishes and the AC bonus decreases. While the cleave damage is pretty low, it still reeks of exploit to me to let it be an automatic hit even on a protected target. (Same problem with high AC targets...I can't hit you at all if I'm trying, but I can at least nick you if I aim at your buddy...)

Of course, there might be a lot of 'hidden' rules (rules not in the preview) that cover these kinds of things.

 

[AllisterH]

So he actually hit all of them, and only the wizard takes damage? Then wouldn't the other images vanish?

.

Why would the other images vanish? The images duplicate the movement of the actual wizard so even if one image vanishes, the others should be ok

What am I missing?

Cleave doesn't strike me as an unfair option given that it was DESIGNED to attack multiple foes. Mirror Image was designed to fool a single directed attack by creating multiple foes.

 

[Lizard]

Why would the other images vanish? The images duplicate the movement of the actual wizard so even if one image vanishes, the others should be ok

Sorry, I meant that to be absolutely certain the wizard is hit, the attacker must have hit all the other images.

What am I missing?

Cleave doesn't strike me as an unfair option given that it was DESIGNED to attack multiple foes. Mirror Image was designed to fool a single directed attack by creating multiple foes.

It does this, mechanically, by having each image vanish as it's hit. Cleave damages the wizard by hitting him. Presumably, since the person doing the cleave doesn't know which wizard is real, he hits every image. Hence, if a person uses cleave on a mirror-imaged wizard, it ought to dispel the spell since each image is struck. If not every image is struck, there is a chance the wizard doesn't take damage.

Like I said, I'd houserule it so that a random image is struck and the AC bonus drops as per the spell. It seems the fairest solution, and the one which requires the least scenario-building to justify the mechanics. Occam's razor, and all that.

 

[fafhrd]

Cleave does damage to an enemy adjacent to the target. Per Mirror Image, all images share your square, hence they aren't adjacent.

 

[Lizard]

Cleave does damage to an enemy adjacent to the target. Per Mirror Image, all images share your square, hence they aren't adjacent.

I'm discussing:
Fighter is adjacent to wizard; both are adjacent to Orc

W
FO

Orc barbarian with cleave attacks fighter.
Wizard takes cleave damage, despite mirror image.

Or is that not how it works?

 

[fafhrd]

Mirror image has no effect on direct damage that doesn't require attacks.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So he actually hit all of them, and only the wizard takes damage? Then wouldn't the other images vanish?

4E Mirror Images don't vanish when they're struck. They vanish (one at a time) when the subject is missed. Since Cleave doesn't miss, it doesn't dispel images.

Orc barbarian with cleave attacks fighter.
Wizard takes cleave damage, despite mirror image.

Right. 4E Mirror Image increases your AC. Cleave bypasses AC.

-Hyp.