D&D General Wizard vs Fighter - the math

[KoolMoDaddy-O]

Wait...why is that the answer? What is the problem - that wizards are better at AoE? Why is it not also a problem that fighters are better at ST, then? Should we also be buffing wizards at ST? And what about other classes? Fighters are already outstanding damage dealers; the main complaint about the class (which, outside of a vociferous group on this forum is generally considered a strong class - we're not talking monks here) is that fighters aren't very great outside of combat.

This thread is about the amount of damage dealt, as measured in numbers. It has been my observation that fighters deal lots of damage but generally only to one (maybe two if using Action Surge or Extra Attack) opponent per turn, whereas wizards deal a greater total sum of damage per turn against multiple opponents, which are the most common encounters. This strength is theoretically tempered by the attrition of spell slots but because parties tend to long rest any chance they get, the brakes on the wizard are rarely pumped. If the goal is to bring parity between the classes to total damage dealt, then buffing the fighter with a mild 5 ft. AOE attack seems a better alternative than nerfing the wizard. This could be as simple as lowering the first Extra Attack from level 5 to level 1 or 2.

If we're discussing fighters' utility outside of combat (which was not the focus of the OP), then I agree wholeheartedly they need improvement -- as does nearly every other class in the game. 5e hasn't escaped its wargaming roots. I've commented in other threads that my frustration with playing a wizard is the inability to do a lot of things wizards are known for in literature and movies, like brewing potions or building a tower full of books and weird relics. Crafting and strongholds were nonexistent before Xanathar's and have been pretty thin since (which led me to fill the gaps with 3PP) but it looks like OneD&D aims to correct that.

When I played my last fighter, I gave him utility by becoming the party linguist. Choice of feats as well as background and the attendant skills and abilities that come with it are vital to enjoying the class.

 

[FrogReaver]

I’ve also not seen it mentioned but polymorph ally into giant ape lets anyone do optimized fighter levels of damage (at least for a significantly played level range), giving them the size and athletics to grapple effectively. A huge hp pool to tank. A decent ranged attack. Better movement speed than most martials. A climb speed.

So from levels 7-10 in a typical party the wizard can basically turn anyone into a better optimized fighter.

 

[FrogReaver]

This thread is about the amount of damage dealt, as measured in numbers. It has been my observation that fighters deal lots of damage but generally only to one (maybe two if using Action Surge or Extra Attack) opponent per turn, whereas wizards deal a greater total sum of damage per turn against multiple opponents, which are the most common encounters.

Past level 7 this is incorrect. Wizards mostly keep up with fighter single target damage if desired. They can then do aoe instead of that or on top of it if really needed.

*Most wizards don’t do so, but they can.

 

[KoolMoDaddy-O]

Past level 7 this is incorrect. Wizards mostly keep up with fighter single target damage if desired. They can then do aoe instead of that or on top of it if really needed.

*Most wizards don’t do so, but they can.

I assume you're talking about a situation where a wizard is, say, concentrating on a Wall of Fire while popping off a Fireball.

Yeah you can do it (and I have) but not something you're going to do regularly.

 

[FrogReaver]

I assume you're talking about a situation where a wizard is, say, concentrating on a Wall of Fire while popping off a Fireball.

Yeah you can do it (and I have) but not something you're going to do regularly.

I wouldn’t think it’s something that’s regularly needed.

 

[Mort]

I think for most wizards the extent of their damage optimization is magic missile and fireball. Which probably explains the ‘there is no issue vibes’.

Alternatively, in these discussions we act like wizards will also pick the perfect spell for the situation despite a player probably not knowing all the monster stat blocks. That’s an unreasonable assumption and it does make wizards appear a lot more powerful than they will be in actual play. IMO still stronger after a certain point, but not as strong as typically stated.

Wizards don't have to pick the "perfect" spell for any given situation. They just need a few spells that are broadly applicable (heck minor illusion is a cantrip and REALLY useful over a broad range of situations).

By 5th level a wizard will have cantrips + rituals + 8-9 prepared spells. That's MORE than enough to account for a wide range of stuff.

 

[FrogReaver]

Wizards don't have to pick the "perfect" spell for any given situation. They just need a few spells that are broadly applicable (heck minor illusion is a cantrip and REALLY useful over a broad range of situations).

By 5th level a wizard will have cantrips + rituals + 8-9 prepared spells. That's MORE than enough to account for a wide range of stuff.

For the delta of the wizard and fighter to be as large as it is typically stated the - Yes they do.

As I said in the very post you quoted. IMO even without that the wizard is still ahead, but just not as far.

So what are you actually disagreeing with me about?

 

[Mort]

Past level 7 this is incorrect. Wizards mostly keep up with fighter single target damage if desired. They can then do aoe instead of that or on top of it if really needed.

*Most wizards don’t do so, but they can.

Past level 7 (especially) single target damage is generally the least effective option the wizard has - but yes, they can do that too.

 

[FrogReaver]

Past level 7 (especially) single target damage is generally the least effective option the wizard has - but yes, they can do that too.

I’m a bit confused. Why do you quote me as if you are disagreeing when I’m saying the same thing in either that post or one very near it.

I mean damage is usually the worst thing for a wizard to do. So it’s even worse than that.

 

[Mort]

For the delta of the wizard and fighter to be as large as it is typically stated the - Yes they do.

As I said in the very post you quoted. IMO even without that the wizard is still ahead, but just not as far.

So what are you actually disagreeing with me about?

Maybe not much.
I've just seen the "wizards don't often have the perfect spell prepared...." bandied about as some kind of gotcha quite a lot lately. And it irks me, because perfection isn't needed.