Wizard vs. Monk...Winner?

[JamesDJarvis]

The more prepared and more experienced player would win regardless of class as long as they didin't roll a lot of 1's.
The wizard player has really got to understand how to play a high level wizard to have a sure victory in this fight.

such duels really don't point out which class is more powerful than another class anyway, they are designed to be in a party of four characters, in a dungeon with a number of encounters against the four characters. A wizard with all the buffs and plenty of experience in an unknown fully detailed adventure environment is very different from a wizard that knows who, where and when he is fighting .

 

[Bryan898]

Thanee:

Nope, the wizard will make that first save on a 2+ and that's all he needs to get to cast his spells. I think we all agree, that the wizard simply wins, as soon as he casts his first spell Time Stop or whatever, there are plenty options.

The wizard saves on a 2+? How exactly does the wizard get a +28 save? +6 base, +6 Con, +8 resistance (protection from spells)= +20- and that's assuming a +6 Con even. With +20 he'd still fail 50% of the time.

Dimensional Lock, bay-bee, not Anchor.

So you cast forcecage.. then the monk abundant steps out of it. Then Dimensional Lock? It's an 8th level spell, you're not quickening it more than likely, so how are you pulling off a forcecage/ dimensional lock combo before the Monk can escape? Not too mention it's easy to purchase a Helm of Teleportation.

Then you use your buffs and your Greater Scry and summons and ... and ... and ... THEN you come back.

Better summon alot of creatures with teleport if you plan on bringing them back with you. Greater Scry on the other hand has a save, and if the monk makes it he can't be scryed on for 24 hrs, but of course... the monk's saves don't matter cause only a stupid wizard would use spells with saves, like you said yourself.

YAY, indeed! Do you even have an idea how obscene a 20th level buffed up wizard's stats look like!?

Yes, I've seen multiple wizards played, some as high as 28. It can all simply come crashing down with a scroll of greater dispel magic. But even so, you have Protection from Spells- +3 to your saves assuming a +5 cloak of resistance already. Mind Blank would be a waste. Invisibility, Displacement, and Mirror Image are worthless assuming the monk has an item with true seeing. Stoneskin is worthless since the monk has ki strike (adamantine). The stat buffing spells are okay, but you'd assume you'd have your needed stats buffed higher by items already. Fire Shield's okay, but this will be a battle of Save or Die. I'm missing the wonderful buff spells that would be super effective here....

luckblades are at hand, to reroll the potential 1 on the attack roll or for a single class wizard the potential 1-4 on the SR roll.

We'll not bring wishes into the equation please. The game will literally break if you do. Otherwise my monk buys a ring of wishes and wishes that your wizard forgot all his spells he prepared for the day =P. Or simply use it to make the saves I fail, or to undo your successful save against my attack, etc.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Invisibility, Displacement, and Mirror Image are worthless assuming the monk has an item with true seeing.

Nondetection helps with invisibility, but IMO that's not the best resource to use against an opponent who just might have Blind-Fight.

 

[Bryan898]

Storm Raven:

Empty body is of no value against force effects.

Yes... and there's what, four force spells? Just how many magic missiles, wall of forces, forcecage's, and mordenkainen's (sp?) will the wizard have prepared. A simple Helm of Teleportation remedies the forcecage problem. Meanwhile, while ethereal almost every other attack spell in the wizard's repeitoire is useless to attack the monk with. It would make approaching the wizard much safer and easier.

Your hypothetical monk has a 30 Wisdom using the core rules? That's pretty high, and assuming you use some sort of point buy build, you have to sacrifice a lot of other ability scores to get there.

The hypothetical wizard in the case likely has an Int of 30 as well. It's also not so high, put +5 from stat increases, +5 book, +6 item and you can start with a 14. The lack of money needed for weapons (typically 200,000k for a fighter class) allows the monk to use his money on stat increasing items such as books to increase the all import stats of Wisdom, Dexterity, and Constitution.

The problem is, the wizard is probably going to try to use spells that don't allow for a save.

Not many of those are so great in 3.5. I looked when choosing the wizard spells I'd use. The instant kill effects all allow a save nowadays.

[/i]Dimensional Lock[/i] has no save. Once you are trapped in the forcecage and locked down, your movement doesn't matter.

Yes but it would take you two turns to cast this combination, two turns in which the monk would have to stand still. Though that does make it quite possible with time stop.

That's why you have spells like Scrying.

Has a save, so you'd better hope the monk fails it. You'd also have to establish how well the two know each other, because if they've never personally met the monk gets +5. Still doesn't help that when you return the monk is hidden via the Hide skill and you have to try to find him.

Fly + Teleport to return. Stay out of the monk's range for abundant step and you are fine. Rain death from above. Rinse, repeat.

Once again, you can't simply sit 200 feet up in the air and rain death. That's a -20 spot check to find the monk with Hide. Neither See invisibility or true seeing allow you to see a hidden character. Raining death from above isn't a viable option.

And you can summon allies. 4 greater air elementals (or some other combination of 3 or four high level summon spells) can ruin a monk's day.

True, but over the course of a few rounds. It doesn't take long for the wizard's d4 HD to run out, or for the stunning attack or quiverring palm.

True Strike + Meteor Swarm = toasty Monk

Not so. You throw four spheres, each one makes a ranged touch attack. Only the first one will benefit from true strike. Not too mention the spheres deal 2d6 bludgeoning damage, then explode for 6d6 with a Reflex save for half. With Improved Evasion the monk is already taking only half damage. Assuming the wizard hits on the first, and second vrs the monk that will be 4d6 bludgeoning damage. Next the monk gets four saves vrs probably a 30 DC, with a possible +20 or more bonus that's 50%, or hit by two. Because of Improved Evasion that means he takes 6d6/2 and 6d6/2, or 6d6. So he takes around 10d6 damage, nothing a self respecting 20th level monk can't handle. This is assuming the wizard hits on the touch attack. The monk's AC could easily be 30+ on touch attacks (+5 deflection from RoP, +10 Wis, +7 Dex, +4 monk dodge bonus= 36 touch AC for example.)

Basically the wizard's tactics amount to (1) lock the monk down, and (2) kill him at the wizard's leisure. Once he's locked down, the monk's resistances will eventually fail.

I couldn't agree more. The part where we differ is that I think a well played monk would have a chance of avoiding being locked down long enough to make one attack on the wizard. One Quiverring Palm or Stunning Blow could possibly be enough to end the fight.

 

[Bryan898]

(Psi)SeveredHead:

The monk vanished? I would Dimension Door as far away as I can, then cast see invisibility and buffing spells, like fly. So no, the monk needs to sneak up on the mage. Which he can do, but not in one round anymore.

As would I. However, on the other hand, if I'm the monk and the wizard disapears I jump for cover and hide. Also, any self respecting 20th level character will have access to fly. Eventually, whether it be hours or days, the wizard will need to come down, and that's when the monk strikes. Stalk your prey until you're controlling the situation.

Cast fly. What is the monk to do now? Now feel free to use true strike if you need to hit, provided you prepared it. If not, just fly close and use forcecage. (Forcecage is pretty cheesy, IMO.)

Naturally the monk will use an item to fly. Note, even with true strike the wizard has a chance to miss against a 36 or more touch AC. Forcecage IMO is cheese as well, I don't really allow it in my game, it kind of goes the way of Imprisonment.

Which is useless against a flying wizard.

I've played quite a few high level/ epic games, and I've NEVER seen a fighting class without some form of fly by level 20.

While I can't expect a wizard to always prepare horrid wilting, any mage might cast forcecage during the time stop.

Quite true, the Forcecage and Dimensional Lock combo work well in a time stop. But if my monk is ethereal the Dimensional Lock won't affect him, as it notes that it has no effect on creatures already ethereal.

Don't bother unless you have true strike.

Already broke down the meteor swarm true strike thing above. Meteor Swarm truly is a pretty weak spell for 9th level... too many dice, 4 touch attacks and the opponent gets four Reflex saves... Horrid Wilting is much better, or even Polar Ray IMO.

 

[Storm Raven]

Yes... and there's what, four force spells? Just how many magic missiles, wall of forces, forcecage's, and mordenkainen's (sp?) will the wizard have prepared. A simple Helm of Teleportation remedies the forcecage problem. Meanwhile, while ethereal almost every other attack spell in the wizard's repeitoire is useless to attack the monk with. It would make approaching the wizard much safer and easier.

I don't need more than one or two preapred to ruin the monk's day.

The hypothetical wizard in the case likely has an Int of 30 as well. It's also not so high, put +5 from stat increases, +5 book, +6 item and you can start with a 14. The lack of money needed for weapons (typically 200,000k for a fighter class) allows the monk to use his money on stat increasing items such as books to increase the all import stats of Wisdom, Dexterity, and Constitution.

Three +5 books would cost you somewhere in excess of 400,000 gp. That's more than half of your wealth by 20th level.

Yes but it would take you two turns to cast this combination, two turns in which the monk would have to stand still. Though that does make it quite possible with time stop.

One round. greater rod of quicken spell.

Once again, you can't simply sit 200 feet up in the air and rain death. That's a -20 spot check to find the monk with Hide. Neither See invisibility or true seeing allow you to see a hidden character. Raining death from above isn't a viable option.

It depends on what the monk has to use for hiding. In an arena type battle (like has been discussed here), there isn't any place to hide.

True, but over the course of a few rounds. It doesn't take long for the wizard's d4 HD to run out, or for the stunning attack or quiverring palm.

Not with time stop in effect. First you cast time stop then you summon a couple buddies to keep the monk busy while you cast more spells.

Not so. You throw four spheres, each one makes a ranged touch attack. Only the first one will benefit from true strike. Not too mention the spheres deal 2d6 bludgeoning damage, then explode for 6d6 with a Reflex save for half. With Improved Evasion the monk is already taking only half damage. Assuming the wizard hits on the first, and second vrs the monk that will be 4d6 bludgeoning damage. Next the monk gets four saves vrs probably a 30 DC, with a possible +20 or more bonus that's 50%, or hit by two. Because of Improved Evasion that means he takes 6d6/2 and 6d6/2, or 6d6. So he takes around 10d6 damage, nothing a self respecting 20th level monk can't handle. This is assuming the wizard hits on the touch attack. The monk's AC could easily be 30+ on touch attacks (+5 deflection from RoP, +10 Wis, +7 Dex, +4 monk dodge bonus= 36 touch AC for example.)

Reread the spell description. If the ranged touch attack hits, not only does the monk take the 2d6 bludgeoning damage, but he gets no save against that sphere's fire damage. That's 8d6 damage, no save. A 20th level wizard who isn't even specialized in touch attacks would probably have a +32 or so (+10 BAB +20 true strike, +2 Dex) on the true strike enhanced touch attack. Combine this with judicious use of summoned creatures to keep the monk busy, and a couple of things like horrid wilting and the monk will probably lose.

 

[tylermalan]

Thread starter...

Originally Posted by Bryan898
Yes... and there's what, four force spells? Just how many magic missiles, wall of forces, forcecage's, and mordenkainen's (sp?) will the wizard have prepared?

Bryan898: Remember, this is a fight between two COMPLETELY prepared characters. Imagine that from the moment the Wizard and Monk were born, they both instinctively knew that at level 20, they would fight each other in a duel. This means that throughout their entire lives, every magic item and spell that they acquired was geared specifically to fight each other at level 20, they know the exact limits of each other (in game terms, meaning they know maximum hit points and stats and so on), and the only books allowed are the Core Books. That being said, there is no argument over whether or not the Wizard would have access to the "right" spells or magic items, and the same can be said for the Monk.

I really don't see how anyone can think that the Monk even really has a chance, as Dimensional Lock and Forcecage is really all that is necessary, making spell selection beyond those two spells almost pointless. Even still, you can assume the Wizard has Contigency Teleport and plenty of Scrying spells, plus Horrid Wilting. That's what, 6 or 7 spells? That leaves a lot of spell slots open for things like Time Stop...

The only thing that gives the Monk a chance IMO is antimagic, and even that only gives him a CHANCE, not a win.

In addition, I now see why people think the Monk is underpowered, as after going over his list of abilities again, I don't see a lot there that is worth much, nothing like what I previously thought, anyway.

 

[Bryan898]

Three +5 books would cost you somewhere in excess of 400,000 gp. That's more than half of your wealth by 20th level.

I didn't say three +5 books. One +5 book, two +4 books, four +6 items= approx 460,000 gp. That's +10 to Dex and Con, +16 to Wis. Let's see- 32 point buy, base stats of 14, 16, 14, 12, 14, 8. By 20th level- 20, 26, 20, 12, 30, 8. Without any other items that gives the monk: AC 32, touch 32, flat-footed 26; Svs +17 Ref +20 Will +22; also Stunning Fist and Quiverring Palm DC 30.

One round. greater rod of quicken spell.

Another item that I don't allow because of it's horribly broken applications... but yes, allowing these cause much damage. Then again if we're allowing such items it shouldn't be too improbable to allow the monk an item that can activate Antimagic Field 3/day, or less depending on the most optimal cost-wise.

Not with time stop in effect. First you cast time stop then you summon a couple buddies to keep the monk busy while you cast more spells.

Summon monsters are pathetic, AC 37+... nuff said.

Reread the spell description. If the ranged touch attack hits, not only does the monk take the 2d6 bludgeoning damage, but he gets no save against that sphere's fire damage. That's 8d6 damage, no save. A 20th level wizard who isn't even specialized in touch attacks would probably have a +32 or so (+10 BAB +20 true strike, +2 Dex) on the true strike enhanced touch attack. Combine this with judicious use of summoned creatures to keep the monk busy, and a couple of things like horrid wilting and the monk will probably lose.

So he'd hit on the first one for 8d6. Then likely miss on all the others as he'd need a 20 to hit the monk's touch AC of 32. Still pretty worthless to me.

It depends on what the monk has to use for hiding. In an arena type battle (like has been discussed here), there isn't any place to hide.

What type of arena, open top or not? Do they start across from each other and someone says Go? If the rules are like that, the monk probably wins initiative (+12 using my monk example above). Then charges and uses his quiverring palm or stunning blow attack. If he hits, the wizard has to make a Fort save DC 30 or die. I'd say about a 50% chance (+6 Fort, +6 Con, +8 Spell Protection).

Remember, this is a fight between two COMPLETELY prepared characters. Imagine that from the moment the Wizard and Monk were born, they both instinctively knew that at level 20, they would fight each other in a duel. This means that throughout their entire lives, every magic item and spell that they acquired was geared specifically to fight each other at level 20, they know the exact limits of each other (in game terms, meaning they know maximum hit points and stats and so on), and the only books allowed are the Core Books. That being said, there is no argument over whether or not the Wizard would have access to the "right" spells or magic items, and the same can be said for the Monk.

Knowing the Monk's abilites don't exactly mean knowing what the monk's going to do. You memorize your spells 4+bonus spells, but is he going to directly charge you? Is he going to use Abundant Step, or turn Ethereal? Will he attack you with Quiverring Palm or try to grapple you? Will he sunder you component pouch? You can't assume that the wizard knows this any more than the monk can assume what wizard spells are going to be used. You can just prepare against the common spells used in such battles.

 

[Storm Raven]

I didn't say three +5 books. One +5 book, two +4 books, four +6 items= approx 460,000 gp. That's +10 to Dex and Con, +16 to Wis. Let's see- 32 point buy, base stats of 14, 16, 14, 12, 14, 8. By 20th level- 20, 26, 20, 12, 30, 8. Without any other items that gives the monk: AC 32, touch 32, flat-footed 26; Svs +17 Ref +20 Will +22; also Stunning Fist and Quiverring Palm DC 30.

The higher point buy is to the monk's advantage right there. That's part of the problem - most characters aren't built on that many points.

Another item that I don't allow because of it's horribly broken applications... but yes, allowing these cause much damage. Then again if we're allowing such items it shouldn't be too improbable to allow the monk an item that can activate Antimagic Field 3/day, or less depending on the most optimal cost-wise.

Did you miss the terms of the debate? "Core rules only". A greater rod of sudden quicken is core. A home-brewed antimagic field is not. You can forget all of your house rules about what you would and would not allow - they are inapplicable.

And more to the point, all you prove by bringing them up is that, once again, when someone talks about something that varies from most people's experience, that their opinion really stems from a series of house rules that they have adopted that have changed the baseline assumed by the game.

Summon monsters are pathetic, AC 37+... nuff said.

But they keep you occupied, which is the point. And a greater air elemental's unmodified attack bonus is +23. Four of them slamming you twice per round will hit your 37 AC 2.4 times per round, for an average of 14 points of damage per hit, or 33.6 points of damage per round. Throw in a couple of attack spells to target you, and your monk is hurting.

So he'd hit on the first one for 8d6. Then likely miss on all the others as he'd need a 20 to hit the monk's touch AC of 32. Still pretty worthless to me.

Against which, you have no means of retaliating. You're in a dimension locked forcecage remember? He only has to reel off a couple of those, a couple of horrid wiltings, even a series of magic missiles and you aren't doing much of anything any more.

What type of arena, open top or not? Do they start across from each other and someone says Go? If the rules are like that, the monk probably wins initiative (+12 using my monk example above). Then charges and uses his quiverring palm or stunning blow attack. If he hits, the wizard has to make a Fort save DC 30 or die. I'd say about a 50% chance (+6 Fort, +6 Con, +8 Spell Protection).

You are forgetting things like luckstones, pale green ioun stones, and so on. Just those two items added reduce the chance of failure to 40%. But then again, what you are saying here isn't that different from what I said in the beginning: the monk has to get on the wizard off the bat to win. Given that most wizard's will likely have a +8 or +9 initiative bonus (Improved Initiative plus high Dexterity), winning initiative isn't such a gimme for the monk. Even then, given that most wizard's will have a moment of prescience active at the outset of combat, your monk may not have a very good chance of hitting with his initial swipe. And if the monk doesn't get the wizard off the bat, the monk is almost certainly dead. The wizard just has too many options to lock down and destroy the monk.

Knowing the Monk's abilites don't exactly mean knowing what the monk's going to do. You memorize your spells 4+bonus spells, but is he going to directly charge you? Is he going to use Abundant Step, or turn Ethereal? Will he attack you with Quiverring Palm or try to grapple you? Will he sunder you component pouch? You can't assume that the wizard knows this any more than the monk can assume what wizard spells are going to be used. You can just prepare against the common spells used in such battles.

I don't need to know. If I win initative, I lock him down in the first round and finish him off however I want. If I lose Initiative, I know what he's going to do - because he does it. Then I react once he's committed.

 

[Crothian]

Wouldn't it be best to just take the NPCs from the DMG and use that as a base line for this? They are created with the same rules and are not going to be min maxed and unreaslitic characters like we see here.