Wizard vs. Monk...Winner?

[Lord Pendragon]

People have mentioned a forcecage a couple times. If the tactic is so deadly and fool-proof, wouldn't a prepared 20th-level monk have, for instance, a greater ring of spell storing with disintegrate stored, ready for just such an emergency?

Just a question.

 

[Macbrea]

Far as I can tell.. Forcecage only really slows down the combat. Doesn't end it. Techncially, on the 20th level fight that means every 40 hours the wizard looses 1500 gps from his wealth. It doesn't allow him to attack the individual in the cage unless he leaves a barred cage. At that point the monk is perfectly within reason to drink his potion of gaseous form and escape the cage. So, what that really has the effect of is the monk needs to somehow not have to eat food or need to drink water. As this could turn out the be a really long fight.

 

[Storm Raven]

People have mentioned a forcecage a couple times. If the tactic is so deadly and fool-proof, wouldn't a prepared 20th-level monk have, for instance, a greater ring of spell storing with disintegrate stored, ready for just such an emergency?

Just a question.

Well, mostly because it is an incredibly expensive item with limited use for the monk. For example, the hypothetical monk that has been partially statted out in this thread has spent ~460,000 on ability enhancing items. A major ring of spell storing would cost another 200,000 gp. That only leaves ~100,000 gp for everything else, like protective items, offensive items, and so on.

 

[Storm Raven]

Wouldn't it be best to just take the NPCs from the DMG and use that as a base line for this? They are created with the same rules and are not going to be min maxed and unreaslitic characters like we see here.

The lower stats and lesser amount of magic the standard NPCs have just works to the advantage of the wizard, since the monk is heavily dependant upon high ability scores and items.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Well, mostly because it is an incredibly expensive item with limited use for the monk. For example, the hypothetical monk that has been partially statted out in this thread has spent ~460,000 on ability enhancing items. A major ring of spell storing would cost another 200,000 gp. That only leaves ~100,000 gp for everything else, like protective items, offensive items, and so on.

Well, I'm not sure it's a good idea to mix one guy's "partial statting" with anothers, but you make a good point. I hadn't realized the ring was that expensive.

Then again, I'm liking Macbrea's potion of gaseous form as a great supplement.

 

[tylermalan]

Quote by Bryan898:
Knowing the Monk's abilites don't exactly mean knowing what the monk's going to do. You memorize your spells 4+bonus spells, but is he going to directly charge you? Is he going to use Abundant Step, or turn Ethereal? Will he attack you with Quiverring Palm or try to grapple you? Will he sunder you component pouch? You can't assume that the wizard knows this any more than the monk can assume what wizard spells are going to be used. You can just prepare against the common spells used in such battles.



I don't need to know. If I win initative, I lock him down in the first round and finish him off however I want. If I lose Initiative, I know what he's going to do - because he does it. Then I react once he's committed.

That's exactly my point Bryan, I wasn't trying to say that the Wizard is going to know what the Monk will do, its that he doesn't need to, ever.

Crothian, we don't do that because we're already assuming the exact opposite, that the characters are NOT average. They're both as prepared as they can possibly be.

I also don't think I need to point out that everything the Wizard can do, he does because he's a Wizard. Every chance the Monk has, he gets from an item.

Macbrea, unless I'm mistaken, the Forcecage could be the 10 ft. cell with no windows, but its invisible, which means the wizard coule still target the Monk inside of it with Horrid Wilting.

 

[Storm Raven]

Well, I'm not sure it's a good idea to mix one guy's "partial statting" with anothers, but you make a good point. I hadn't realized the ring was that expensive.

Then again, I'm liking Macbrea's potion of gaseous form as a great supplement.

That has it's own problems. The monk while in gaseous form becomes vulnerable, losing lots of its defenses and abilities. The monk may not be able to end the gaseous form when he wants to (I need to reread the potions section to be sure), which would trap him in this form for a while.

But the thing is, slowing the combat down is what the wizard wants to do. The monk wasting time drinking a potion, moving, and later reforming is time that the wizard can cast spells.

 

[LostSoul]

The cheese, the cheese...

What about Dust of Sneezing and Choking?

How far can you throw that?

Is there a way to negate it?

 

[Macbrea]

Combat styles are really dependant on the character: given this monk:

Random Monk, Male ExPsiHb, Elan Mnk20: CR 20; Medium Aberration (Psionic); HD 20d8+40(Monk) ; hp 134; Init +12; Spd 90; AC:41 (Flatfooted:33 Touch:33); Atk +16/11/6 base melee, +23/18/13 base ranged; +23/18/13 (2d10+1, Unarmed strike); SQ: Repletion (Su), Resilience (Su), Resistance (Su), Naturally Psionic: 2 Bonus PP; AL LG; SV Fort +14, Ref +20, Will +21; STR 12, DEX 26, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 28, CHA 8.
Skills: Balance +15, Climb +10, Concentration +10, Escape Artist +31, Heal +11, Hide +25, Jump +25, Listen +20, Move Silently +25, Survival +11.

Feats: Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack: Unarmed strike, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Naturally Psionic 2, Self-Sufficient, Stunning Fist, Weapon Finesse.
Possessions:
Goods: Coin: gp (2050) (2,050 gp).
Magic: Wondrous: Periapt of Wisdom +6 (36,000 gp); Wondrous: Belt, Monk`s (13,000 gp); Wondrous: Boots of Teleportation (49,000 gp); Wondrous: Bracers of Armor +8 (64,000 gp); Wondrous: Cloak of Displacement, Major (50,000 gp); Wondrous: Cube of Force (62,000 gp); Wondrous: Bottle of Air (7,250 gp); Wondrous: Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36,000 gp); Wondrous: Iron Bands of Bilarro (26,000 gp); Eversmoking bottle (5400gp); Ring: Three Wishes (97,950 gp); Ring: Freedom of Movement (40,000 gp); Wondrous: Decanter of Endless Water (9,000 gp); Potion: Water Breathing (10) (1,500 gp); Potion: Water Breathing (10) (1,500 gp); Potion: Water Breathing (10) (1,500 gp); Wondrous: Heward`s Handy Haversack (2,000 gp); 13 Potion: Cure Serious Wounds (5) (750 gp); 10 Potion: Gaseous Form (5) (750 gp); 3 Wondrous: Dust of Disappearance (3,500 gp); 4 Wondrous: Elemental Gem, Water (2,250 gp);

Used: Wondrous: Manual of Quickness of Action +4 (110,000 gp); Wondrous: Tome of Understanding +4 (110,000 gp);

Vs the hyperthetical wizard. He would simply put up cube of force on his initiative. Inside any force cage that they wizard set down. Then immediately open the bottle of endless water and the eversmoking bottle. Since, he is probably at this point dimensionally anchored and protected inside his force cube he waits until he needs to drink a water breathing potion. Summones his Water elementals and then uses the ring of wishes to wish to wizard was in the cube with him. The fight truely begins at this point. Monk underwater and blinded by smoke in the water grapples the wizard with the aid of the water elementals. Fight becomes a very messy fight for the wizard.

As you can see, it's all a matter of style.

 

[Sputnick]

Heres what I love about the fight a monk is a mage-killer class yet he cant stand an onslaught of spells. But in some of the above desciptions supplment monk for any other class and you get the same result death for the other class. Heres why I like Monk because they get a natural spell resistance no other core class has this feature. Second Improved evasion takes care of you Time Stop carpet bomb of Deley blast Fireballs. I dont know why you think Time stop sovles all problems cause it gives you a HUDGE advantge but will not WIN you the fight. I've seen alot of Wizards/Sorcercers blow their wad in three rounds cause they used time stop and lost all their high lvl spells. Thirdly is simply the saves a monk has the best core class saves which means the wizard cant pick on you targeting a spell of you weak save. Not to mention the equipment at 20th could make this monk a devistating weapon combine this with a little Use magic device and I take my staff of power and kick that wizard's ass with it.

So the monk class is the best class to defeat a wizard in duel combat, can the wizard win well yes like said 100 times above "depending on circumstance."

But there is no question in my mind that out of all classes there is none better suited to the task of dueling a wizard and totally owning them!!!!