Wizard vs. Monk...Winner?

[IcyCool]

Macbrea, unless I'm mistaken, the Forcecage could be the 10 ft. cell with no windows, but its invisible, which means the wizard coule still target the Monk inside of it with Horrid Wilting.

Unless you do the barred cage, forcecage will block line of effect.

 

[tylermalan]

Heres what I love about the fight a monk is a mage-killer class yet he cant stand an onslaught of spells. But in some of the above desciptions supplment monk for any other class and you get the same result death for the other class. Heres why I like Monk because they get a natural spell resistance no other core class has this feature. Second Improved evasion takes care of you Time Stop carpet bomb of Deley blast Fireballs. I dont know why you think Time stop sovles all problems cause it gives you a HUDGE advantge but will not WIN you the fight. I've seen alot of Wizards/Sorcercers blow their wad in three rounds cause they used time stop and lost all their high lvl spells. Thirdly is simply the saves a monk has the best core class saves which means the wizard cant pick on you targeting a spell of you weak save. Not to mention the equipment at 20th could make this monk a devistating weapon combine this with a little Use magic device and I take my staff of power and kick that wizard's ass with it.

So the monk class is the best class to defeat a wizard in duel combat, can the wizard win well yes like said 100 times above "depending on circumstance."

But there is no question in my mind that out of all classes there is none better suited to the task of dueling a wizard and totally owning them!!!!

Man, I don't think ANY of that makes sense, assuming I read it correctly, which is, truthfully, unlikely...

We've already dealt with an opinion like this, but to reiterate... It's not Time Stop, then Fireball - its Time Stop, then Horrid Wilting. Horrid Wilting requires a Fort save for half damage, not a Reflex save, which negates the Evasion/Improved Evasion ability. Also, Spell Resistance is really easy to beat for a Wizard who has dedicated his life to beating a Monk when they both reach level 20, so I think everyone can agree that the SR is NOT a factor. In addition, even with horribly high saves, against a Wizard with, what, a 32+ Intelligence, the Monk will still need to roll upwards of a natural 15, meaning he only saves a quarter of the time (all those numbers were approximated). Lastly, it's not the WIZARD who "might" win based on circumstance as has been said above, its the Monk who "might" win if given the right circumstances. If in doubt, ask Thanee.

Oh, and thanks Icy, I didn't know.

 

[IcyCool]

We've already dealt with an opinion like this, but to reiterate... It's not Time Stop, then Fireball - its Time Stop, then Horrid Wilting.

You can't use Horrid Wilting on someone during Time Stop.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Well, mostly because it is an incredibly expensive item with limited use for the monk. For example, the hypothetical monk that has been partially statted out in this thread has spent ~460,000 on ability enhancing items. A major ring of spell storing would cost another 200,000 gp. That only leaves ~100,000 gp for everything else, like protective items, offensive items, and so on.

You've obviously never experimented around much with a Ring of Spell Storing. They are MASSIVELY and CONSISTENTLY useful (for a non-caster anyway), and well worth every copper.

To be honest, any monk built to face a wizard in this manner who does NOT have a Ring of Spell Storing (or equivalent item) has been built WRONG.

We've already dealt with an opinion like this, but to reiterate... It's not Time Stop, then Fireball - its Time Stop, then Horrid Wilting. Horrid Wilting requires a Fort save for half damage, not a Reflex save, which negates the Evasion/Improved Evasion ability.

Too bad Horrid Wilting can't be cast while Time Stop is in effect...

(if that's the tactic you're trying to imply, rather than Time Stop, Trap, Call Outsiders, Buff, Horrid Wilting)

 

[Sputnick]

Hey readin those high lvl spells might help you understand there limitations cause I see way to many mistakes like people over using horrid wilting in a time stop...I bet some of you noobs still think you can haste other people in a time stop too. So like any EXPERIANCED player will tell you Wizards at high lvl are powerful but dont get high and mighty. READ THE RULES then you'll know how to avoid high lvl spells and in the end the MONK is the best out of all the other classes.

Oh and you didn't need to tell me that your "numbers" are aproximate because when you make a 20th lvl monk you could have most of your save stats at +10, resitance bonus +5, base 12, and +2 from feats is +29 and those are real numbers.

 

[Thanee]

The wizard saves on a 2+? How exactly does the wizard get a +28 save?

With Moment of Prescience.

So you cast forcecage... then the monk abundant steps out of it. Then Dimensional Lock?

Yeah, just without the monk acting in between, thanks to the greater metamagic rod of quicken every 20th level wizard will surely have, if equipment can simply be bought.

Greater Scry on the other hand has a save, and if the monk makes it he can't be scryed on for 24 hrs, but of course... the monk's saves don't matter cause only a stupid wizard would use spells with saves, like you said yourself.

That's right, but what does it matter, eventually the monk will fail his save. It's not like the wizard can't wait for a few days.

Yes, I've seen multiple wizards played, some as high as 28. It can all simply come crashing down with a scroll of greater dispel magic.

Didn't they know about ring of counterspells?

I'm missing the wonderful buff spells that would be super effective here....

How about Shapechange? Or Gate for the 'summons'; 40 HD outsiders can be quite nasty.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

People have mentioned a forcecage a couple times. If the tactic is so deadly and fool-proof, wouldn't a prepared 20th-level monk have, for instance, a greater ring of spell storing with disintegrate stored, ready for just such an emergency?

If the characters were built just for this purpose, he better had one.

But realistically, you won't find something like that on a monk, while the wizard has no trouble getting the Forcecage up. It's definitely one of the nastier combos in the PHB.

But a simple quickened True Strike + extended Otto's Irresistible Dance will take care of the monk even better.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Wouldn't it be best to just take the NPCs from the DMG and use that as a base line for this? They are created with the same rules and are not going to be min maxed and unreaslitic characters like we see here.

The problem is, the stuff mentioned for the wizard really is not unrealistic at all. A typical PC 20th level wizard will be able to pull mostly everything mentioned here off. The only item in question would be the rod of quicken, which I agree is horribly overpowered.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Rystil Arden]

That's right, but what does it matter, eventually the monk will fail his save. It's not like the wizard can't wait for a few days.

Not to mention that the initial encounter is a great time to get a body scraping from the monk for the -10 to the save.

You know, I just noticed that the spell's description begins with "You can see and hear some creature..." and later claims "If the save fails, you can see (but not hear) the subject..."

 

[tylermalan]

Hey readin those high lvl spells might help you understand there limitations cause I see way to many mistakes like people over using horrid wilting in a time stop...I bet some of you noobs still think you can haste other people in a time stop too. So like any EXPERIANCED player will tell you Wizards at high lvl are powerful but dont get high and mighty. READ THE RULES then you'll know how to avoid high lvl spells and in the end the MONK is the best out of all the other classes.

Oh and you didn't need to tell me that your "numbers" are aproximate because when you make a 20th lvl monk you could have most of your save stats at +10, resitance bonus +5, base 12, and +2 from feats is +29 and those are real numbers.

Yeah, my mistake about the Horrid Wilting, sorry about that, but you say you "see way too many mistakes..." - what other mistakes have been made? Oh, in addition, you didn't address any of the other things I said about why your original strategy wouldn't work, like how SR isn't really a factor, nor are the saves... Also, I wasn't telling you that my numbers were approximate to make fun of you or something, I was just saying that I didn't calculate them at all, so no need to get nasty while coming in this late in the game, friend. As usual, Thanee's pretty dead-on, so check above for inevitable Monk death.