Wizard vs. Monk...Winner?

[Nail]

Actually, what's truly been shown is:
1. The wizard has greater raw power (well, duh!)

Which was a point of contention with some.

2. Given the right equipment choices, the monk could win, but it definately depends upon equipment vs. wizard choices.

In fact, it's almost entirely dependent. Which tell us something, nicht wahr?

3. The terms of the dual really can, to a large extent, determine the victor. The ideal conditions for the monk and for the wizard are far from the same.

Yea, it does help the Monk if the Wizard's foot is nailed to the floor, and his left arm cut off. We agree there.

4. With absolutely no equipment or preperation at all, the monk wins (well, duh, the wizard needs his spell book and spell component pounch, or at least have been able to prepare spells that are V & S only.) Yes, the wizard COULD counter this with feats, but then he has NOT taken other feats, has he?

Wait. When was it claimed a wizard without a spell component pouch could win? This is a laregly spurious conclusion to draw.

5. Who wins is GREATLY intiative-dependent. In many cases the wizard could be completely neutralized in the first round if the monk goes first and takes the right actions.

As in all high level combat, this is true. But given the wizard's spells, it's not as important as with other match-ups.

6. Feat choices have also figure largely in the debate, but only so many can be taken and, really, have these two characters ONLY been preparing for THIS FIGHT all their lives?

That is the question asked by this thread, Artoomis.

Bottom line: Monks are wizard-killers, but not so much if the wizard is well-prepared to face the monk one-on-one so long as they have exactly the right equipment and a party of friends to help.

Fixed that for you.

 

[10th man down]

Says the core rules. The feats availabale for players are detailed in the Player's Handbook. Anything else is a house rule.

Could you please refer me to the pages where this is explained?
In case you refer me to the pages 59 and 87 you should read them again. Those pages, especially 87, detail only the process of acquiring feats and that you must meet the prerequisites of feats you want to take.
Nowhere is it said that a player is restricted to the feats listed in the PHB, only that he has to follow the rules of acquiring feats.

10th

 

[Storm Raven]

Could you please refer me to the pages where this is explained?
In case you refer me to the pages 59 and 87 you should read them again. Those pages, especially 87, detail only the process of acquiring feats and that you must meet the prerequisites of feats you want to take.
Nowhere is it said that a player is restricted to the feats listed in the PHB, only that he has to follow the rules of acquiring feats.

Perhaps the titles of the respective texts would illuminate you.

But, really, this debate is neither here nor there. Even with Ability Focus, a monk is still generally outclassed by an equally levelled, appropriately equipped wizard.

 

[Tzarevitch]

Which is interesting, but not part of the core rules.

So by your definition anything that corrects or explains the alleged "core rules" is not "core"? That doesn't make sense.

Tzarevitch

 

[Storm Raven]

So by your definition anything that corrects or explains the alleged "core rules" is not "core"? That doesn't make sense.

The FAQ, by definition, is not core. In many cases, the FAQ purports to contradict the core rules, even though the order of precedence WotC ascribes to it states that it cannot. I don't say the FAQ isn't core, WotC does.

 

[Tzarevitch]

What it boils down to is that unless the monk gets an early stunning fist or quivering palm in he will probably loose. There are simply too many ways that a spellcaster can prevent a monk from closing the range and the monk simply can't defend against all of them:

Teleport related spells
Walls (Force, Stone, Ice, Prismatic)
Prismatic Sphere
Solid Fog/Acid Fog
Summon Monster Spells
Terrain altering spells
Illusions
Forcecage
Bigby's Hand spells

The wizard also has multiple ways to auto-disable, incapacitateor otherwise hinder for which the only defense is SR.
Power Words
Otto's Irresistable Dance
Ray of Enfeeblement
Waves of Fatigue/Exhaustion

The monk's defense comes a couple of flavors:
Speed: (close the range, unfortunately the monk can't innately fly and if he has a fly item he flies no faster than the wizard does. The item is also VERY vulnerable to Dispel.)
High AC: (Again the monk needs items. Base AC is quite good for someone who is unarmored but it is not THAT good without Bracers).
All Good Saves: (This is fine, except for the spells that cause partial damage and spells with no save at all)
Evasion: (This is related to the good saves issue).

The Monk's offense comes in a single flavor:
Fists (Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm mainly). Damage is pretty good but you onnly have middle BAB and unfortunately you have to get close enough to hit him so you are really only getting a single swing and hoping for a special effect. Grapple is the monk's only other real option but a wizard or any other high level adventurer who doesn't oen a Ring of Freedom of Movement deserves what he gets.

Tzarevitch

 

[Storm Raven]

One thing that is interesting to me is that many of the monk's suggested tactics involve him purchasing (often expensive) magical items that effectively duplicate some handful of the spells on the wizard's spell list: winged boots, rings of spell storing, rods of cancellation, and so on, and so forth. Effectively, the implicit message in this strategy suggestion is that the monk has to emulate being a wizard in order to defeat the wizard.

 

[Zimbel]

3. The terms of the dual really can, to a large extent, determine the victor. The ideal conditions for the monk and for the wizard are far from the same.

Good. Can you propose conditions under which the Monk would have an advantage? I came up with a list a few pages back, if you want a starting point. I think that of my suggestions, the "Wandering anti-magic fields" was probably the most useful one (other than containing both PCs). Most of the others could work to a Summoner's benefit, over the long term. The other one that could be nice is the useful cover suggestion (i.e. made of force, or something else difficult to destroy).

5. Who wins is GREATLY intiative-dependent. In many cases the wizard could be completely neutralized in the first round if the monk goes first and takes the right actions.

Erm.. not if the Wizard is prepped (which is the assumption). Contingency makes initiative largely irrelevant for being hit, and in the event that the Monk figures out a way around Contingency, MoP reduces the chance of Stunning Fist/Quivering Palm from taking down the Wizard to 5%. A single Luckblade can reduce this to 0.25%.

 

[solates]

The issue here is gear.
lvl 20 characters should have about 760,000 gp in gear.

A wizard is going to blow most of his on scrolls, staves, rods, armor increasing items(bracers of armor +9, gloves of dex +6, amulet of natural armor +6, ring of protection +5).
and any intelligence increasing items(headband of intellect +6).

A monk however is going for saves(cloak of resistance +5) and the same above except he probably will get a belt of giant strength as well and instead of amulet of natural armor a phylactery of wisdom +6. And all the above as well.

Difference is basicly that a monk has no bad saves, has leap of the clouds(and with 23 ranks + say 3 for str mod is 26 + d20 roll for jumping) massive speed(made better with a simple set of boots of striding and jumping). He also has abundant step(dimension door) 1/day.

And he has the diamond soul ability(which at lvl 20 would be sr 30 meaning the wizard would have to roll 10 or higher everytime he cast a spell to have it affect the monk, or 6 or higher if he had burned 2 feats to get greater spell penetration).

Getting to the wizard is not an actual issue-a monk can close distance without issue, OR he could just sneak up on the wizard. There is no spell that reveals a hidden character. This gives him a surprise round. And most likely the wizard will start his round flat on his back. Which means among other things he will spend the rest of the fight trying to get up.

And saying he does have contigency for 50% hp(normal contingency) all that does is get him away from the fight, he goes away, buffs, comes back flying etc.. The monk can simply just hide and wait for a new opportunity to gank the wizard.

Simply put any character with a high hide skill can kill anyone without spot as a class skill.

This starts at 1st lvl when a ranger, rogue, monk starts using hit and run tactics to win against overwhelming opposition. The way it works is legit, but extremely one sided, unless you have someone who can spot the enemy the enemy will eventually win.

Also only a small handful of wizard spells do not allow a save, and most are touch, or ranged touch attacks, both of which are pretty much NOT going to hit a monk because his ac and touch ac are pretty much the same(minus bracers of armor and amulet of natural armor if he does have them, most give up the natural armor for the wisdom boost).

If the environment allows for stealth the monk will win. IF it does not the monk will still most likely win IF he has boots of flying in his backpack and takes the round to change footwear. OR he has a potion of flying(best bet).

A high lvl character is dangerous but only against certain enemies, a monk is really designed to take out soft targets and make hard targets work for the kill. A wizard is in general designed to handle utility spells among the party and take out enemy hard targets but starts to lose steam when he comes accross anything with evasion, improved evasion and good saves.

The two classes that really work well against a wizard are rogues, and monks. A rogue can hit and run a wizard to death in no time, and a monk can just literally take a wizard out without much issue in one round or 2.

Solates

 

[Storm Raven]

The issue here is gear.
lvl 20 characters should have about 760,000 gp in gear.

A wizard is going to blow most of his on scrolls, staves, rods, armor increasing items(bracers of armor +9, gloves of dex +6, amulet of natural armor +6, ring of protection +5).
and any intelligence increasing items(headband of intellect +6).

All of which will probably soak up a fractional portion of the total cash. Leaving him money to go for saves, and so on.

A monk however is going for saves(cloak of resistance +5) and the same above except he probably will get a belt of giant strength as well and instead of amulet of natural armor a phylactery of wisdom +6. And all the above as well.

Yes, he will. But since he has four stats that really need enhancing (Wisdom, Dexterity, Strength, and Constitution), he's got to invest a lot in building those up, more than the wizard, who really only needs to boost his Intelligence.

Difference is basicly that a monk has no bad saves, has leap of the clouds(and with 23 ranks + say 3 for str mod is 26 + d20 roll for jumping) massive speed(made better with a simple set of boots of striding and jumping). He also has abundant step(dimension door) 1/day.

The wizard casts fly. Your land bound speed is of no value.

And he has the diamond soul ability(which at lvl 20 would be sr 30 meaning the wizard would have to roll 10 or higher everytime he cast a spell to have it affect the monk, or 6 or higher if he had burned 2 feats to get greater spell penetration).

So only half my spells work. Half my spells that allow SR that is. That leaves me plenty of spells to damage you with.

Getting to the wizard is not an actual issue-a monk can close distance without issue, OR he could just sneak up on the wizard. There is no spell that reveals a hidden character. This gives him a surprise round. And most likely the wizard will start his round flat on his back. Which means among other things he will spend the rest of the fight trying to get up.

Cast fly while prone (casting defensively should be automatic for any reasonably desinged 20th level wizard). Fly out of the monk's reach.

And saying he does have contigency for 50% hp(normal contingency) all that does is get him away from the fight, he goes away, buffs, comes back flying etc.. The monk can simply just hide and wait for a new opportunity to gank the wizard.

Scry. Sure it has a save, but a reaosnably desinged wizard will have a save DC high enough that this will work a fair amount, and if it doesn't, he just leaves and looks for the monk some other day.

Also only a small handful of wizard spells do not allow a save, and most are touch, or ranged touch attacks, both of which are pretty much NOT going to hit a monk because his ac and touch ac are pretty much the same(minus bracers of armor and amulet of natural armor if he does have them, most give up the natural armor for the wisdom boost).

We went through this already. True strike is a wizard's friend. Alternatively, a barrage of magic missiles cast while flying should ruin the monk's day.

If the environment allows for stealth the monk will win. IF it does not the monk will still most likely win IF he has boots of flying in his backpack and takes the round to change footwear. OR he has a potion of flying(best bet).

The winged boots allow you to fly for 15 minutes. The potion of flying allows you to fly for five minutes. The 20th level wizard can fly for 20 minutes. Unless you have both on hand, the wizard can outlast you in the air, and all he has to do is avoid you for that time period. If you have both, he can cast the spell again (possibly from, for example, a scroll).