Wizard vs. Sorcerer for Newbie

[zyzzyr]

Hi all,

Well, this definitely went in a direction I wasn't expecting. So far the biggest responses seem to be of the situation itself, rather than the differences between sorcerer and wizards (tho Zad's post is along the lines of what I was looking for ... thanks!)

Why did I let her play a wizard?

Why not? I'm not about to dictate to someone what they can or can't play (within reason). Yes, a fighter or rogue would be easier to learn, and that was mentioned at creation, but she wanted to play a wizard - she really enjoys the magical aspect.

Why can't the players be more mature?

They are. They're not calling her names, or throwing their dice around, or rolling their eyes at her. They can't in-character suggest too much - the fighter and barb are non-magical and have ints < 8. OOC they can suggest things, but the goal is for her to become self-sufficient. Since it was discovered she was having difficulty picking spells to prepare, there has been help from the other players (Note the group is one vet and three newbies). But that doesn't stop her from being upset at herself for not helping out the group because she picked the wrong spells to prepare that day.

I've played wizards myself before, and there's no doubt, when you're tramping through the dungeon and thinking "Damn, I really could have used that "meld into stone" spell,", it's frustrating. If you don't have that spell, it's now a non-issue.

Marius Delphi - you're right, unfamiliarity with the spell list is a big problem. We've done cheat sheets, with one liners. You're exactly right in that she's lost in the options. I don't like advising her, because I know what's coming, and don't want to look like I deliberately advised her wrong. Besides which, that becomes a huge time sink.

Thematically, I am going to use a ritual similar to the wizard->sorcerer ritual in R&R by SSS, if she chooses to go this path.

Let's try this a bit differently - let's assume the following:

a) She is having trouble with the wizard. We've tried pretty much everything.
b) The other players are mature about the issue, and not the problem.

All I'm really looking for is a list of differences between the two classes to hand to her (as I have already done, but looking for things I hadn't thought of), and say look, here's your options.

 

[Henry]

I would submit that just because the characters have int less than 8, does not mean they don't know that she can make things disappear. In fact, if they've seen her do it, they know she can do it. Not much in character reasoning required there, unless I'm not seeing something.

On another level, I would suggest that more patience is needed. If you feel the need, I would bring up to her, after the game, that you have noticed that her play style may or may not be more in tune with sorcerers than wizards, and describe the two main points that differentiate the two (variety and versatility). Be sure she knows the drawbacks, as well as the advantages. If she prefers to stay wizard, don't try to force any changes, and get a consensus among your more experienced players, too.

It takes time from people to learn every little thing, and frankly, some people don't want to especially right away. (Right away can be the first few weeks to a whole year; it varies for everyone.)

I would also suggest one of the experienced players to take a role here, role-playing be darned. Role playing comes after a player is comfortable with the basic game conventions. If one player acts as a mentor, so to speak, giving advice on topics such as spell selection, not doing it FOR the new person, as was suggested, but making suggestions (such as suggestion of spell lists for different forays, but not preparing the lists themselves).

Another possibility is that (if the wizard has a familiar) the player could roleplay the part of a familiar. In legends, wizard familiars were consulted for advice and magical tutoring - why not take that fantasy trope to heart here?


These are by no means the only suggestions, but I think by focusing on doing what you can to help a new player make her own decisions, rather than what best benefits the group, will do two things: 1) build a self-sufficient player, and 2) build a new player that will feel like they have control in the game, and will be more likely to remain in the group.

 

[Henry]

I noticed I had forgotten to include the list you spoke of.

Pro's for wizard:

-any spell you run across, any time, you can learn.
-you gain extra feats every 5th level.
-all simple weapons (minor good point).

Con's for wizard:
-lack of spontaneous versatility.
-lack of weapon variety.
-making magic items, a major perk of the class, is very costly in XP and materials.


Pro's for sorcerer:
-extreme spontaneous versatility.
-more versatility with personal weapons.
-more benefit out of metamagic feats than wizard, when combined with above versatility.

con's for sorcerer.
-extreme LACK of spell selection.
-lack of Magic user's 4 extra feats over 20 levels.

 

[Nightfall]

Also depends on what you allow in. There are some interesting feats that are more beneficial for Sorcerers (such as Blood Line/Scion feats in both R&R2, the upcoming Player's Guide for Wizards, Bards, and Sorcerers) as well as some Pr-classes. Wizards are the same, but there are a wider variety for them in many ways. (Eldritch Feats, better familiars, varied Item Creation abilities...)

 

[Chun-tzu]

This is off the top of my head, so it probably won't cover every difference.

Monte's Sorcerers are better all-around adventurers than Wizards: better hit points, extra skill points, better weapon selection, no dependency on a spellbook or scribing costs, no need for material components. They may come from exotic backgrounds, which is appealing to some players, perhaps having some dragon blood in their veins, or faerie blood, or some other supernatural creature. Sorcerers make good battle mages. Some sorcerers also choose a theme to their magic, such as fire magic, or mind magic, or shadow magic. Unlike most Wizards, Sorcerers are very social, and well-liked by others. Their high Charisma may represent confidence, friendliness and approachability, or physical attractiveness.

They don't have the same versatility as Wizards when it comes to casting spells. Wizards have access to more divination magic, used to gather information about various things. They also gain access to higher levels of spells more quickly than Sorcerers, and they can manipulate magic a little more easily, through bonus metamagic feats.

 

[zyzzyr]

Hi all,

Henry: Thanks for the list.

There are other reasons why I am simply asking for the list as opposed to a list of things to try to get her to enjoy the wizard, or help her learn.

Note also, there is no "experienced playerS". The group consists of me, the DM (a vet), another (only one other!) vet, and three complete and utter newbies. Total newbies who had never even seen a game played before. Note we're also all in our thirties.

Things I haven't mentioned yet:

1) We game once/month or less, so she doesn't get enough constant exposure to the game. That is, by the time the next session rolls around, she has probably forgotten what we did last time. This is pretty reasonable - I wouldn't want to take a pop quiz on something that the boss told me last month and hadn't mentioned since.

2) I have tried the mentor thing already. Unfortunately, there is only one person who could help because he's the only other vet. He is her husband. Needless to say, it's then a tense situation, in case the one feels the other is "telling them what to do" or what have you.

The "wizard's familiar" is an excellent suggestion, though, and one I hadn't yet tried.

Also, note I am simply trying to present her with information and then allow her to make her own decision. I am not trying to force a decision on her - I simply want to present her with the most information possible.

I agree that there are more interesting things for sorcerers -- any PrC that has +1 SL is a (power) benefit, plain and simple.

 

[Chun-tzu]

Pro's for wizard:

-all simple weapons (minor good point).

You're thinking of Sorcerers on this one. Wizards are restricted to daggers, staves, clubs, and crossbows.

 

[Quickbeam]

First off, the concept of using the player's familiar as a guide is brilliant. We did this once a long time ago with a relatively new player, and it worked wonderfully. One suggestion on how to do this, is to have the familiar be the previous pet/familiar of another adventurer that has been bestowed upon the PC in question. It could be a gift from her mentor or a renowned mage who has taken a liking to your newbie's character. In essence, the familiar becomes Jiminy Cricket and the PC fills the role of Pinocchio.

As for the list, Henry does a pretty good job covering the basics.
Other points I'd add in favor of the wizard:
** School Specialization
** Likely bonus skill points due to high INT
** Bonus languages for the same reason

For the sorcerer:
** No spell components (we use a variant sorcerer, so this may not apply to your game)
** More influential personality due to high CHA
** May be a natural leader...although for this player I doubt that's an issue right now since she's still trying to become comfortable with her PC

 

[I'm A Banana]

I can't believe how close my situation was to yours about a year ago, zyzzyr!

Me, and my bud were the only experienced players.

The rest of everybody (4 people) were completely and utterly new. All had some genrea-type experience, but nothing with the game itself...

...and one of the new players chose the charcter of Mialee, the Elven Wizard...

Some things I did to ease the transition:

1) Whipped up the character sheets for the noobs right off the bat. Had them choose from amongst these characters. I told them it looked complex, but not to worry about understanding it all right away...when they had to do anything, I told them where to look on the character sheet to find the information they needed. This made it a *lot* less complex for them. I could explain everything, and I only had to limit it to basically the iconic characters (which encompasses quite a bit of variety, actually).

2) Since I knew the spell lists and they didn't, I wasn't too concerned with telling them what would be a good spell and what would be a useless spell....I told the Druid: "You'll probably want to memorize the Cure Whatever Wounds spells, because no one else has healing. If you don't, your party will probably be hurting a bit more than normal." I told the Wizard: "Normally, you'll want things that blow stuff up. Choose things that cause damage...Magic Missile is good, Melf's Acid Arrow is good, etc." If we were going into a stealthy situation, I'd advise: "It may be a good thing to memorize a stealthy spell." I would *so* have this advice come from the familiar. The important thing is that YOU know what the classes can do, and can steer the player in a direction that would both fulfill their goals, and keep them happy.

3) I made a house rule: You *can* switch out the spells you've prepared, but it requires quite a bit of time (about 10 minutes/spell level). Thus, if you've got time, you can switch what you've got prepared. However, this also puts a damper in your adventure plans, especially if time is at all an issue.

4) Keep in mind Wizard spells are limited. I knew what spells she had at first, and I knew what spells I gave her as the adventure progressed. I could thus advise her on what to take.

5) Make them play a ninja, because ninjas can do anything.

Basically, I'd say instead of having her switch, help her to memorize the right stuff....

O'course, if she still wants to switch, I'd have her make a new character instead of just switching classes....blargh!

Anyhoo, that does introduce the whole bag o' tricks that is making a PC over 1st level....and you may not want to do that.

The above lists work pretty well, when they're accurate.

 

[GuardianLurker]

Spellcasters require study, there's just no two ways about it. Whether she chooses Wiz or Sorceror, it is going to take her time to become familiar with things.

If she and her husband have Wintel PCs, you might want to recommend Neverwinter Nights as a study aid.

You (or her husband) could run her through some solo adventures. Either with a "dream" version of her current PC, or a different character.

You might also want her to take "spell notes" during the adventure. You can even make this an RP thing worth XP (in which case the other chars should get similar options).

Pick a spell on her list, and *discuss* it as a theory thing. You know the freewheeling, gamer "stories", focused on spells.