Wizard with Bluff and Intimidate as class skills - balance?

[Kae'Yoss]

...he promptly told me I couldn't take the feat, no explanation.
...
I asked why I couldn't sacrifice two feats to make the skills class skills (isn't this a perfect use for feats?). He didn't tell me....

I don't like something like that at all. He may have his reasons for that decision, but as long as he doesn't tell you, it might as well be an arbitrary thing. If he doesn't even say "I can't tell you, that would give away information you're not supposed to have", it might just be that!

Ask him again, and ask him why he won't tell. If he won't tell you why he won't tell you, expect to see more questionable rulings from him, again without explanation.

Is he a good DM otherwise?

 

[reanjr]

Well if you designed the Prestige class you can change some of the pre requisite to prevent that. I too see a problem with this feat and the prestige class. But I like the feat so I simply don't allow the player to take the PrC before he could without the feat. I will not prevent the player rule wise to achieve it but I will add a in game element like single handly defeating a particular enemy, or being able to dispel the magic of a certain door giving access to a religious item ect. You see the idea.

But if you allow a feat like that, you can no longer limit prestige classes by skill selection. You can only do it by skill points, which makes it even no matter what class the character has. You of course can add other prerequisites, but often this can be inelegant. Can you think of anything an NPC class can have by 3rd level, but none of the PC classes can?

 

[reanjr]

I've done away with all rank-based prereqs for prestige classes personally, so this wouldn't effect the balance in my game. If a prestige class would normally require 7 ranks in a skill then I make entry require 3-5 examples of DC 22 checks. The applicant has to succeed at 5 of those tests. If he can do that (even if he of a much lower level or using magic buffs) I can not see the prestige organization turning him away. Afterall, the whole point is that members of that class be able to reliably make checks that a person with 7 ranks in the skill could. If he cheated and made it through with luck then he will fail as a member of the class and his 'lodge brothers' might kick him out if he fails often enough. I hated denying people entry into Prcs brcause they didn't have enough ranks at that time but they might not be back to this area of the campaign world for 7 or 8 levels.

just my two cents

But alot of prestige classes aren't based on organization. Mine for instance, is a prestige Wizard. I wanted to use it for a low-magic campaign. Making the wizard class require a couple of levels of expert or even more of something else first is a rule that explains why there is not much magic and it deterred the PCs from playing one, while not forbidding it.

 

[swrushing]

We cannot know the "why" behind the decision. It could be any of the reasons given above or it could be he has had some balance issues with you in the past or anything. I tended to not use third party stuff in my games.

The first thing you must realize, and I am sure you do, is that if he wants it this way, thats how it is. Thats the GM thing.

The second thing is you must make a guess as to whether or not you have gotten "his final answer" and now the subject is closed or if this is still an ongoing iscussion as to how to get your character closest to what you want.

I would also have approached him with a published feat first. If that failed, i would then approach him with other alternatives, but before i discussed multiclassing, i would have looked for class tweaking as discussed in PHB and DMG. One of the common examples they use is altering class skill lists.

So my second approach would not be toask for multiclassing, but to ask "can i trade off these two class skills for the two that fit my character better?" I would then take that discussion along the lines of what trade offs he would want to tweak the class to fit concept.

I would personally view multiclassing rogue orsuch as a last resort, as it brings in way too much other baggage that can be avoided with a simple tweak to class skills.

As a GM, i allow tweaking of classes routinely. I did it for three classes in my last DND game. I also have begun as standard practice giving every character a free "talented" feat (make one cross class skill a class skill OR gain +1 with one class skill) at first level.

WHy?

Because i have found it common for character concepts to fit the class archtypes "almost perfectly" and that a little thing like one "class skill of choice" helps many people fit the class to the character concept better. They enjoy it more and its a whole lot less cumbersome and focused than telling them to multiclass for one level.

But, thats just me and i ain't your GM.

 

[DarkMaster]

But if you allow a feat like that, you can no longer limit prestige classes by skill selection. You can only do it by skill points, which makes it even no matter what class the character has. You of course can add other prerequisites, but often this can be inelegant. Can you think of anything an NPC class can have by 3rd level, but none of the PC classes can?

No, I don't have an answer for you concerning the NPC. IMC the PC class are superior to NPC class, and should be able to meet PrC class requirement before than NPC. I don't see why a PrC requiring Knowledge street, appraise, bluff 8 for example would be easier rule wise for an Expert to achieve than a rogue.

The only possible limitation would be one outside the rule, like, have succesfully completed at least 35 trade above 10 000gp for example. Most adventurer PC would probably achieve the PrC requirement later because they cannot spend 100% of their time trading while your NPC expert can.

The rogue could theoritically achieve the PrC class as quickly as the NPC but by the time he complete his 35 trade he is already a much higher level. Adventuring PC usually rise in level quicker.

 

[Malin Genie]

Can you think of anything an NPC class can have by 3rd level, but none of the PC classes can?

How about:

Requirements:
BAB +2
Base Will Save +3
Disable Device 6 ranks

This can be achieved by a 3rd level Expert but no combination of (Core) PC classes before 4th level (you need one level of Rogue or cannot get the required ranks in Disable Device, and two levels of Bard, Cleric, Druid, Wizard or Sorceror for the Base Will Save - which together ensure you can't get +2 BAB until 4th level.)

 

[rrealm]

I don't understand how the feat is going to throw off prestige classes. The character needs to spend a feat, so he can't spend his feat to meet a feat requirement of the PrC since most have them. Then, once he spends the feat, he still needs to spend skill points. It doesn't sound free to me and feats mean a lot. You only get them every third level, with a few exceptions.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

The first thing you must realize, and I am sure you do, is that if he wants it this way, thats how it is. Thats the GM thing.

And the first thing every DM must realize, and I am sure they do, is that if he makes seemingly stupid decisions and never gives an explanations, the players my very well leave him alone to play with himself...