Wizardru's Story Hour (updated 11/21)

[Seule]

Remember Practiced Spellcaster means your caster level goes up, but you don't actually get any more spells. You are just better at beating SR and such.


--Seule

 

[Argent Silvermage]

Remember Practiced Spellcaster means your caster level goes up, but you don't actually get any more spells. You are just better at beating SR and such.


--Seule

I'm already at max for spells, so that's not an issue.

 

[LordVyreth]

Ultimately, as the campaign becomes more and more powerful, all non-PCs tend to get left to guard the horses, metaphorically. Thorkeld, Zira and Zara spend time releiving Dravot of lots of administrative, financial and social burdens, usually off-camera. The Mage's guild can't be counted on for much unless directly ordered to do something, and that's purely off of Scorch's status as a MoAO 10, currently the only one left. Aethramyr is held in high esteem many places, but he can't reliably call on folks like the People of the Testing in an emergency. Furthermore, many cohorts, companions and familiars are simply too vulnerable. Dravot just couldn't keep watching Thorkeld die over and over again, nor Bolo wait for Tailcatcher to get unlucky.

Finally, at high levels, combat takes long enough without having ten extra creatures/cohorts/companions/shadows/familiars and so forth to deal with....especially when they rarely decide the course of a battle.

Ah. I see the point about epic-level fights taking forever, especially since my campaign's now online to make things take even longer, but I'm surprised that the cohorts at least are still that vulnerable, which is why I'm curious about their levels. Using standard Leadership rules, a cohort can easily be just a couple levels below the character, and I'm sure that at least a few of the characters have a Cha score up the yin-yang. At that point, even the cohorts are epic-level themselves or at least 20th or in the high teens, which might not be worth risking them in the frontlines but should be enough to make them effective backup forces, especially the wizards and clerics. Of course, I'm not positive, but I think you need to take the epic feat Epic Leadership to get them above 14th level or so, so maybe that explains it. Still, a druid's primary animal companion could still be brutal with the right equipment (belt of strength, amulet of mighty fists, various slotted trinket of Con bump, +5 barding, etc.) But Bolo isn't a straight druid (no pun intended,) so I guess the companion is a little lower than possible. I undertand how that could be a problem; I once ran an epic-level ranger with a gnoll's ECL and LA and the axiomatic and winged templates, so his megaraptor companion was usually forced to flee as soon as a fight started.

Coincidentally, the companion issue just came up in my last game. The party just got a massive load of new magic items that was nonetheless weaker than the standards in the party at the time, so a lot of it went to the wizard's mephit familiar. This was a bit of a surprise to me, as said familiar hasn't left her familiar pocket during adventuring time for about eight levels, after it was attacked and maimed by a swarm of mechanical insects that infected him and started replacing his limbs with machinery!

 

[WizarDru]

Ah. I see the point about epic-level fights taking forever, especially since my campaign's now online to make things take even longer, but I'm surprised that the cohorts at least are still that vulnerable, which is why I'm curious about their levels. Using standard Leadership rules, a cohort can easily be just a couple levels below the character, and I'm sure that at least a few of the characters have a Cha score up the yin-yang. At that point, even the cohorts are epic-level themselves or at least 20th or in the high teens, which might not be worth risking them in the frontlines but should be enough to make them effective backup forces, especially the wizards and clerics.

Well, here's the thing:

1) Six PCs is plenty. If we followed the standard leadership rules, Thorkeld would be Bolo's level. That would make some attendant NPCs as powerful as PCs, and that's something I'm not really keen on. Further, it's one more thing to keep an eye on, one more set of powers for someone to keep tabs on and more combatant to be considered during a combat (both for PCs and DM). Six Epic PCs carry a lot of equipment, options, effects and active spells. Any way to relieve the burden is GOOD.

2) They die. They die A LOT. Dravot stopped bringing Thorkeld along when he kept getting killed (usually through failed saves or overwhelming damage) by creatures that he had no business getting mixed up with. He wasn't advancing fast enough to keep up. The same applies to other creatures and NPCs. Val's Shadow squad has the added benefit of being undead apparitions, so they tend to just be banished back to the shadow plane...or else they'd never see use, as they're too vulnerable. And no wizard wants to risk his familiar...EVER. There's simply no big benefit to it.

3) Leadership pays in intangibles, sometimes. Dravot gets respect in ways that no other player does. Scorch gets alternate sets of fawning and sneering, but his guild run smoothly mostly out of fear and self-interest. The church of Pelor is filled with folks who would march to their death at Dravot's command (a fact that gives Dravot no end of trouble...he hates people doing that sort of thing, generally). The townsfolk of Brindinford look up to Dravot, and generally go out of their way to follow his edicts (rare as they are). The queen listens to Kayleigh, but Kayleigh GETS orders, she doesn't give them. The Overking fears Dravot. The Council of Druids listens to Bolo, and many druids would follow him, if he asked. Bolo chooses not to, for the sake of druidic unity.

4) The SSOM hates, Hates, HATES to carry the load of a large retinue. Sure, dravot could get a squad of clerics to follow the group on standby...they all have groups they could call on; when you're facing the Khrel-Hrdad, however, with monstrosities that rend the fabric of space and time with their evil rage...well, it's of no great benefit to drag a bunch of Wiz 8-12s into combat with you--they just tend to get in the way.

 

[Argent Silvermage]

when you're facing the Khrel-Hrdad, however, with monstrosities that rend the fabric of space and time with their evil rage...well,

um..... Check please. I think i'm done now.

 

[Zad]

Leadership is indeed a tricky thing. As PC's gain respect in the world, they get certain benefits that seem to blur the line with the feat. This is, in my opinion, as it should be, and it's up to the DM to maintain the right balance. I think at times people expect too much from the rules and that they should explain everything in detail. This is an RPG and part of that is the unique human element that each DM brings to the game to make it interesting. Rules can never substitute for judgement or sense of story, and they can never develop a great campaign. They are the tools to build the house, not the blueprint.

So let's be more detailed for a minute. Each one of the PCs has an ability to exert influence on others. It is based on some mechanics (feats) and some personal charisma, and some level of contribution. This information is apparent to all of us in game, but not necessarily to the readership, since much of the "juice" is hidden from Kayleigh's point of view or from the action.

The group as a whole can call on the dragons for aid. They request, rather than order, but their request is likely to be granted based on all the valuable contributions they've made over time.

Scorch: Head of the guild, no feats involved. The guild operates almost purely out of self interest. Scorch would have to cajole cooperation from someone. His status gives him a chance to be heard, but the inducements he offered would more likely determine the answer.

Aethramyr: No leadership roles, no feats involved. Aethramyr is respected by the people of the Testing. He could ask them for aid, but not order it. He would certainly be given thorough consideration, since he has contributed to the cause of those people and on religuious grounds. But they would resist any request that would be too costly. Had he the feat, a likely game effect would be more of a willingness to ignore the cost of a request, and/or a better ability to order rather than ask.

Dravot: Leadership role, leadership feat. The perfect combination of story and mechanics supporting each other. His power and influence are both temporal and spiritual. Even the highest elders of the church would have to have a pretty damn good reason to refuse a request/order he made. It has nothing to do with hit dice or numbers of guys in armor - it represents the both the reach of his feat and the reach of his character in the world. It also represents the fact that humans are generally more inclined to obey authority in this context.

Bolo: Implied leadership role, no feats involved. Druids on the other hand are not easily led. Their very nature is contrary to it. Bolo, as a high ranking druid, could make requests, but the response would be driven by the need and his ability to make his case.

Valanthe: No leadership role, no feats involved. Perhaps the far end of the spectrum for this discussion. Valanthe is the least of a "people person". There are no religious orders, no monarchy, no guild that she influences. Such entanglements would be too constrictive for her anyway. The only organization she could tap on would be on the Shadow Plane. And while she has a reputation there, and she has contributed to their cause, she has no ability to order anything, and limited ability to request. Valanthe is not one to look elsewhere for aid in any case.

Kayleigh: Leadership role, no feats involved. Elves too are not easily commanded, but are more organized than the druids. Kayleigh has no troops per se, but if she was in the field and gave orders to an elven military unit, her orders would most likely be obeyed. The champions have no formal rank, but massive informal rank. Combined with her personal reputation and contributions to the elven people, she could get a lot of support if needed. But most of this comes from her personal qualities and experiences and elven culture rather than a feat. Had she the leadership feat, that might manifest in troops under direct command, or a champion cohort.

In each case, the character's base level of influence is more driven by what they've done (remember - actions have consequences ) than the feat. What the feat does is cover the degree of response and decrease the amount of justification needed.

 

[WizarDru]

Valanthe: No leadership role, no feats involved. Perhaps the far end of the spectrum for this discussion. Valanthe is the least of a "people person". There are no religious orders, no monarchy, no guild that she influences. Such entanglements would be too constrictive for her anyway. The only organization she could tap on would be on the Shadow Plane. And while she has a reputation there, and she has contributed to their cause, she has no ability to order anything, and limited ability to request. Valanthe is not one to look elsewhere for aid in any case.

Correction here: Valanthe has a leadership role, other than her shadows. Known only to Scorch and Valanthe, she secretly leads the organization known only as The Hand. Scorch, fearing a repeat of previous socerous mistakes, built a failsafe into the new Mage's Guild: a secret watchdog organization of non-mages dedicated to watching, monitoring and, if necessary, stopping arcanists from violating the basic precepts of the guilds bylaws. The Hand, however, is a small organization and Valanthe's ability to order them somewhat limited. Zad correctly points out that Valanthe rarely seeks outside aid from any agency, even her comrades...a self-reliance earned on the streets of Dyvers and not easily shaken.

Also, it should be noted that Aethramyr has an increased social status in the nation of Highfolk, where he was raised, though not as high as a certain elf-prince-in-self-exile.

 

[the Jester]

All right, this thread gets my official award for "story hour read in the most bizarre order."

Now that I've finished the whole thing at last, I don't think I read more than three pages in order...

Great story, guys- I really like the pics, too. Keep up the good work.

(btw, Wizardru, it was a kick seeing Xukrischis in here!)

 

[Ashy]

Leadership is indeed a tricky thing. As PC's gain respect in the world, they get certain benefits that seem to blur the line with the feat. This is, in my opinion, as it should be, and it's up to the DM to maintain the right balance. I think at times people expect too much from the rules and that they should explain everything in detail. This is an RPG and part of that is the unique human element that each DM brings to the game to make it interesting. Rules can never substitute for judgement or sense of story, and they can never develop a great campaign. They are the tools to build the house, not the blueprint.

I agree 1000% here, Zad! This just might become my sig!

 

[Zad]

Re: Valanthe's role in the guild - yeah I let that one go by the wayside, as it mostly was covered by the Scorch discussion, and seemed slightly tangential for the purposes of the point I was going for. It's a very interesting role as a safety kill-switch more than a leadership position per se.