Wizards: Already Too Strong?

[Neonchameleon]

I'm still concerned about Shocking Grasp.

Shocking grasp is for all practical purposes a melee weapon attack. You roll to hit with it like a melee weapon and it does damage like a melee weapon. Its only real difference from a melee weapon is that it gains advantage against metal armour. W00t. There's no fundamental difference between shocking grasp and bashing people over the head with a quarterstaff.

We haven't heard much about Ray of Frost. There's a playtest report on the forum where the poster says that his wizard just spammed RoF while the rest of the party picked off the bad guy from a safe distance with ranged attacks. (I believe this was against the ogre.)

Ah, poor solo design. How I love you from the 4e MM1 days. Also it really exploited the complete lack of stickiness that messes up 5e movement.

Light still bothers me a bit. The fact that you can only have one casting going at a time is a good thing, and I do recognize that many groups don't want to keep track of torches anyway, but it really seems like as long as you keep the party together it eliminates the need for torches altogether.

And? Torches cost 5cp. That's nothing.

That said, Light does worry me. Not for going torching. But for "light bombs" - light cast on something. The something stored in a bag or something breakable - and then hurled. Instant dazzling. Make it dim not bright light...

Not sure about Detect Magic. Depends how the DM plays it, I guess. It needs clarification.

Doesn't reveal hidden things and takes a standard action. Not worried unless people are using it to see through solid rock - and even then it's not serious I think.

Spamming at-wills does not feel very 'classic D&D' to me. I'm OK with PF at-wills, because in that system cantrips remain very much minor.

It feels much more 'Appendix N' to me than wizards running out of spells.

The title of this thread just makes me think the LF/QW folks won't be happy, pretty much ever. To me, this 5e wiz looks like a clear victory for them

Which side do you mean? To me the fighter looks like a win for the "Wizards must be all powerful" side.

 

[Neonchameleon]

It's kinda unrealistic to ignore the dwarf with the big Axe, furiously chopping you to pieces.

Defeat in Detail is not unrealistic. Retreat from the dwarf with the big axe, take out the squishy, and then fight the dwarf when you no long have the distraction.

 

[mcintma]

Which side do you mean? To me the fighter looks like a win for the "Wizards must be all powerful" side.

I dunno, Greatsword +6 (2d6 +7) at level 1 is gonna give someone the hurt real hard. d12HD (granted you don't see the HP effect relative to Wiz until after lvl1) His AC might be a typo, or it'll probably get fixed based on all the screaming (but I agree, too low).

If this wiz is "all powerful" because he can, if the roll goes his way and he has LoS and target has no SR, lose his action to reduce a guy's move to 0 for 1 round then ... wow.

BTW compared to the Clr they appear to both lose.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I dunno, Greatsword +6 (2d6 +7) at level 1 is gonna give someone the hurt real hard. d12HD (granted you don't see the HP effect relative to Wiz until after lvl1) His AC might be a typo, or it'll probably get fixed based on all the screaming (but I agree, too low).

If this wiz is "all powerful" because he can, if the roll goes his way and he has LoS and target has no SR, lose his action to reduce a guy's move to 0 for 1 round then ... wow.

BTW compared to the Clr they appear to both lose.

We've been taking the fighter apart over at rpg.net. And yes, he hits the hardest in the party. But for two major reasons - highest strength and that unlike the cleric of Moradin he has a two handed sword. (Damage on a miss isn't a fighter thing - it's a slayer thing and the Moradin cleric got the Knight theme instead).

Equalise the weapons and strengths, and the sum total of the fighter's bonusses in combat are: +1 (unexplained) to hit, +2 damage, +3hp.

That simply doesn't compare to spells.

Wizard vs Cleric of Pelor - Sleep is terrifying. And the wizard has a wide array of tricks. He can keep up IMO.

I think what I may be showing is that we've got Czilla back.

 

[DogBackward]

It's not clear that a rogue could learn cantrips like that - I'm imagining he can't (wasn't possible in previous editions that easily, anyhow), but there's no way to know. It's not likely to be that attractive, however, since he's probably not int-focused, and why not just use a weapon.

The Magic-User Theme (which, presumably, anybody can take) grants two minor spells. So a Rogue could take Shocking Grasp and Ray of Frost, both very useful. Shocking Grasp deals more damage than finesse weapons, doesn't deal physical damage (and so breaks through physical resistances), and more importantly lets the Rogue Sneak Attack anything in metal armor. Grants Advantage, remember? Ray of Frost is great control, and good to let a squishy Rogue retreat and hide, only to come from a different direction later.

 

[mcintma]

I can't shake the feeling this 5e wiz has the traditional 1e drawbacks, but with nerfed spells (no scaling, easier saves), and that spamming the admittedly decent cantrips to bridge the gap won't work for long, espec into mid levels.

I think what I may be showing is that we've got Czilla back.

Could well be, and the oD part remains to be seen. The old PotC jibe returns

 

[eamon]

I can't shake the feeling this 5e wiz has the traditional 1e drawbacks, but with nerfed spells (no scaling, easier saves), and that spamming the admittedly decent cantrips to bridge the gap won't work for long, espec into mid levels.

You might be right. Still, I think it's way too early to worry about those things. I'd much rather have a good, varied, cohesive, internally-consistent set of rules and then worry about balance tweaks. I played (and DMed) 3e for years (not known for its balance) and of course you settle on some tweaks; but on the whole, at the table, with whatever tweaks your using - gameplay is fun.

So if the wizard's a bit anemic that's fine, it'll get erratad or just house-ruled as long as its not totally off. More importantly, is the class distinctive and interesting?

(I think balance is overrated anyhow)

 

[mcintma]

You might be right. Still, I think it's way too early to worry about those things. I'd much rather have a good, varied, cohesive, internally-consistent set of rules and then worry about balance tweaks. I played (and DMed) 3e for years (not known for its balance) and of course you settle on some tweaks; but on the whole, at the table, with whatever tweaks your using - gameplay is fun.

So if the wizard's a bit anemic that's fine, it'll get erratad or just house-ruled as long as its not totally off. More importantly, is the class distinctive and interesting?

(I think balance is overrated anyhow)

I agree, good points.

I'd only qualify that spamming the best 'pew pew pew' cantrip is not my personal fave in terms of fun/distinctive gameplay. Feedback I will surely give to WoTC

 

[Campbell]

I think what I may be showing is that we've got Czilla back.

Need more information before I can speak to that. The biggest issue with Clerics in 3e was that they could easily change their spell load for the day and become the equivalent of just about any class in the game. If the domain system significantly limits their pool of available spells it should be fine. I think the idea is that cleric's mainly perform one role and then heal occasionally. They are not primarily healers. Both clerics' healing spells are pretty lackluster compared to their other available options. Healing seems to be there primarily for when a PC takes a dive in order to get them back in the fight. The cleric of Pelor is basically a magic user while the cleric of Moradin has buffs, buffs, and more buffs + a hammer. His buffs buff his buffs. And his heal only does about 3-4 damage. Will need to see it in play. I do like that his battle psalm buff precludes him from casting other spells. If we can make more cleric buffs like that I'll be a happy camper. Herbalism seems OP though. Still need to see it in play.

 

[DMKastmaria]

Defeat in Detail is not unrealistic. Retreat from the dwarf with the big axe, take out the squishy, and then fight the dwarf when you no long have the distraction.

Not when the dwarf with the big axe is after your blood and likely to plant that big axe into your back. If the Wizard is out front and not hiding behind the dwarf, that may be a different story.