Wizards And Sorcerers?

[StreamOfTheSky]

And with enough splat material, sorcerers can gain massive amounts of additional spells known, be able to use metamagic without an increased cast time (and thus use Quicken), get access to a Spellpool for utility spells, and most importantly...get sole unique access to some of the most powerful spells in the game -- Wings of Cover, Wings of Flurry, Arcane Spellsurge, Arcane Fusion, etc...

EDIT: And if you look at the X stat to Y ability thread sometime, you may hapen to notice how err... MASSIVE the list is for charisma.

 

[irdeggman]

And with enough splat material, sorcerers can gain massive amounts of additional spells known, be able to use metamagic without an increased cast time (and thus use Quicken), get access to a Spellpool for utility spells, and most importantly...get sole unique access to some of the most powerful spells in the game -- Wings of Cover, Wings of Flurry, Arcane Spellsurge, Arcane Fusion, etc...

True enough but they are limited on feats - which greatly hampers the ability to gain massive amounts of additional spells known (also most of those feats only grant limited casting of those extra spells usually 1/day, although some up to 3x).

Remember that a wizard can still research those sorcerer only spells and then learn them (of course paying the costs in time and gp for research)

If a sorcerer "researches" a new spell it still counts against his total number of spells known.

EDIT: And if you look at the X stat to Y ability thread sometime, you may hapen to notice how err... MASSIVE the list is for charisma.

Assuming this wasn't sarcasim - Knowledge skills alone out number the entire list of Cha based skills in the PHB.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

True enough but they are limited on feats - which greatly hampers the ability to gain massive amounts of additional spells known (also most of those feats only grant limited casting of those extra spells usually 1/day, although some up to 3x).

Remember that a wizard can still research those sorcerer only spells and then learn them (of course paying the costs in time and gp for research)

If a sorcerer "researches" a new spell it still counts against his total number of spells known.

I was thinking of the bloodline spells that grant 9 new spells known for a single feat and dipping prestige classes like the one in Sandstorm whose name escapes me that grant you piles of new spells known as well. A Runestaff is also an easy way to expand the sorc's spells known pool.

Assuming this wasn't sarcasim - Knowledge skills alone out number the entire list of Cha based skills in the PHB.

I'm not talking about skills. Although if we are, knowledge skills may outnumber the charisma ones alone, but only like 5 are commonly useful, and no int skill comes close to the power of Use Magic Device or Diplomacy (or if your DM allows it in...Iaijutsu Focus). Bluff and Intimidate also being fairly strong skills. My personal belief is a DM would have to be a total pushover for it to fly, but I've seen people abuse Handle Animal of all skills for a game that starts above 1st level to start with some crazy trained dinosaur or something else whose CR is noticeably above the party's ECL! Int may have quantity, but cha wins the quality battle hands down. Which, since skill points are often tight, is the more important category IMO.

But I wasn't talking about skills. I was talking about feats, class features, spells, etc... that let you add your charisma to AC. Or saves. Or initiative. Or attack. Those sorts of things. WAY more options for charisma than intelligence there.