Wizards, Armour and the Collective Consciousness

[Lanefan]

I have to take issue with a couple of examples given:

1. Rand al'Thor (and the Aes Sedai, and just about everyone else in the Wheel of Time)
2. The Deryni (K Kurtz)

Both groups aren't using what the game would define as arcane magic at all. They are using psionics, pure and simple. Completely over-the-top psionics, in the case of WoT, but psionics nonetheless.

That said, wanting to cast out of armour as a regular thing sounds like wanting to have your cake and eat it too. But, there's nothing wrong with having armour be enchanted such that one can cast out of it...though such things would be bloody expensive and extremely rare!

Lanefan

 

[Plane Sailing]

1. Rand al'Thor (and the Aes Sedai, and just about everyone else in the Wheel of Time)
2. The Deryni (K Kurtz)

Both groups aren't using what the game would define as arcane magic at all. They are using psionics, pure and simple. Completely over-the-top psionics, in the case of WoT, but psionics nonetheless.

IIRC Deryni is strongly characterised as psionics, but WoT is just magic (in the most classical form of magic - someone concentrates and it happens)

 

[pawsplay]

Several people have mentioned Elric, but I'm not sure he's actually an example of this. From what I recall, his spells are always ritual-type affairs; in 4e he could probably be a Fighter or Warlord with Ritual Casting.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't ASF gone in 4e? I was under the impression wizards could cast in anything they can wear anyway.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Just to throw in my 2cp, for a modern fantasy example: Eragon and most of the other other magic-users you meet in at least the first 2 Eragon books (haven't read the third yet) wear armor and use magic just fine.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't ASF gone in 4e? I was under the impression wizards could cast in anything they can wear anyway.

Yes, it's not particularly helpful in this case. If we allow 4E like rituals, why would we disallow 4E like lack of arcane spell failure? It's a little selective to create a compelling argument for or against metal inhibiting magic.

 

[NerfedWizard]

Many thanks to all for the extremely useful ammo which I will present to my stubborn friend with great glee.

Just to clear a few things up:-

He also mentioned somatic components but I think the answer to that is very easy:- why do they need to be delicate motions, rather than broad sweeping gestures like wielding a sword, which can easily be done in armour? Wizards have never had Dex as a prime stat, even in D&D ... and you can always take off those tricky gauntlets - what difference does that make to your AC?

Gandalf is not a good example as he is technically not human but a spirit similar to a Balrog in power - an angel/demon

I am not the "DM" and this is not for a game of 4e - my friend wants to modify D&D 3.5 into something different for home use, but does not want to give any form of arcane spellcasters the ability to wear full plate.

You could, of course, always wear bronze armour (cf. one of the earlier posts).

In my own game, Omnifray (Omnifray RPG - Home), wizards, sorcerers and priests of all varieties by default can wear armour, but some may make pacts with magical entities which limit the armour they can wear or weapons they can use.
There should be room for the unarmoured high mage in any fantasy game - but also for his possibly inferior armoured companion.

In Labyrinthe LARP, wizards can wear MAGICAL metal armour without penalty - but not non-magical. So, give me a suit of +1 Platemail and I'm happy...

Very fond of the Circle of the Carrot Magi cantrip

Many thanks all - much gloating may now be had!!!

Matt

(alignment:- CE)

 

[Pbartender]

IIRC Deryni is strongly characterised as psionics, but WoT is just magic (in the most classical form of magic - someone concentrates and it happens)

In that respect, what is the difference between psionics and magic? Either way, you concentrate (sometimes using gestures or words or objects to help focus that concentration) and it happens.

That is to say, if someone can use "psionic" magic or "divine" magic in armor, what makes "arcane" magic so different that you can't?

He also mentioned somatic components but I think the answer to that is very easy:- why do they need to be delicate motions, rather than broad sweeping gestures like wielding a sword, which can easily be done in armour? Wizards have never had Dex as a prime stat, even in D&D ... and you can always take off those tricky gauntlets - what difference does that make to your AC?

• Gauntlets are no longer a specific part of the description of any armor.
• There are many magical gauntlets that any character can wear, and some that are especially useful for Wizards in particular (Gauntlets of the Ram, for example).
• You are wrong. Dexterity, especially in 3rd Edition, has been a prime stat for Wizards. Partially because you needed it to ameliorate the Wizard's lousy attack bonus, so you could hit with those ranged touch spells. Partially because Wizards COULDN'T USEFULLY WEAR ARMOR, and it was one of the few options left for increasing AC.

 

[NerfedWizard]

In that respect, what is the difference between psionics and magic? ... Dexterity, especially in 3rd Edition, has been a prime stat for Wizards. Partially because you needed it to ameliorate the Wizard's lousy attack bonus, so you could hit with those ranged touch spells. Partially because Wizards COULDN'T USEFULLY WEAR ARMOR, and it was one of the few options left for increasing AC.

The difference between psionics and magic:- magic is sparkly, and tingles.

Dex as a prime stat for wizards:- I really meant - a stat which affects their spellcasting in particular. But also was alluding to the old AD&D 1st edition idea of having a primary stat which gave you +X% XP bonus if it was high enough, and which had to be at least 9 for you to take that class. Of course, if you had Dex 3 (or 4 or 5 or 6?) you could only be a cleric, but that doesn't really count. But anyway, what I mean is:- if the somatic components were so subtle as to depend on exact precision, your main stat for spellcasting would be Dex, not Int. Perhaps just conceivably appropriate for illusionists, but not for regular magic-users.

 

[NerfedWizard]

PS this thread is still open for contributions as to literature references to armoured wizards etc.! - the more I can rub his nose in it the better

and D&D Wizardry is different to psionics because it is book-learnt and involves manipulating magical forces external to your own body. But D&D Sorcery is similar to psionics in that it comes from your own innate power. Which makes it rather difficult to explain its V, S, M components, at least in most cases - albeit not impossible.

 

[Staffan]

fighter/magic-users in AD&D 1e.

Now in Palladium FRPG and MERPS, wizards could wear non-metal armor (leather and such) but metal armor disrupted casting. (the same was true of priestly magic too, btw).

I'm pretty sure MERP has the same divisions as Rolemaster. Essence (=arcane in D&D) magic-users have problems with any non-living material (including once-living material like leather), so they can't wear armor at all. Channeling (=divine) is fine with organic material, but not with metal. Rolemaster also adds Mentalism (=psionics), who can wear as much armor as they like over most of their body, but can't wear helmets.

Some other RPGs' versions of the whole wizards-in-armor thing:

• Earthdawn: no problem, really. Flavorwise, many magicians wear robes on account of historical issues.
• Exalted: no problems.
• TORG: no problems.
• Ars Magica: no problems per se, but wearing armor (or carrying other heavy stuff) tends to fatigue the wearer, and so does spellcasting. So most magi would rather not wear armor and instead save that energy for casting.
• Drakar och Demoner (Swedish game): Has gone through lots of editions with varying interpretations. For most of them, it has been impossible to cast spells while touching iron (specifically). Bronze or mithril armor works, though. Some versions have expanded the issue so that you can't cast spells if you're surrounded by metal, even if you're not touching it (e.g. in a cage). Other editions have broken with tradition and allowed wizards to use whatever armor they want.
• Runequest (at least 3rd edition): Spellcasting, like many other skills, take a percentile penalty equal to your encumbrance. Iron is specifically anti-magical, and gives a penalty five times as large as normal (but also does double damage to certain magical creatures, like trolls and elves). You can get tempered iron that does not have the extra penalty and is also a lot harder. The most common metal in use is bronze.
• Eon (another Swedish game) doesn't have any issues with wizards and armor, except for fatigue stuff. However, because the way starting gear is set up (each profession says something like "A picks from the 'clothing' menu, B picks from the 'adventuring gear' menu, C picks from the 'transportation' menu, D picks from the 'esoteric stuff' menu, and E picks from the 'weapons and armor' menu"), starting wizards tend to be pretty light in the armor department.

That's pretty much all I can recall about armor and wizards in RPGs.