Wizards, counter spells and initiative.

[kenc]

Something has come up a few times in our game and I would like to see how it is handled by others.

My wizard wins initiative and delays an action to counter spell. The opposing wizard starts to cast. I make the spell craft check and proceed to counter the spell. Now what is my new initiative? Is it one higher then the opposing wizard, the same or one lower?

If it is one higher then I can try to counter spell for the entire combat. This is my reward for taking improved initiative and rolling good for this combat.

If it is the same what are some of the methods of resolving who actually acts first when initiative is the same.

If it is one lower, explain how this can be.

 

[Li Shenron]

The same Initiative but you go first.

 

[Li Shenron]

If it is the same what are some of the methods of resolving who actually acts first when initiative is the same.

In general:

1) if 2 ROLLED the same Initiative, the one with higher Init MODIFIER goes first. If equal, then you need an extra roll to decide who wins.

2) if one of the two Readied an action then gets the same Init of someone else, he interrupts the other's action and always goes before

3) you can Delay to a lower Init, but can't interrupt someone's turn with it, so you basically either act before or after someone else; if your new Init is the exaclty the same as someone else, in 3.5 you probably decide who is first as in 1)

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

My wizard wins initiative and delays an action to counter spell. The opposing wizard starts to cast. I make the spell craft check and proceed to counter the spell. Now what is my new initiative? Is it one higher then the opposing wizard, the same or one lower?

As Li pointed out, you don't delay to counterspell, you ready an action to counterspell, and, yes, in the next round, if the counterspelled wizard had an initiative of X, your initiative will be "X+0.1" (in a manner of speaking).

AR

 

[kenc]

Thanks for the input so far. I did mean ready an action not delay sometimes delay and ready can get a little mixed up.

 

[TuDogz]

If you ready an action your initiative does not change.

edit: damn SRD (I'm wrong. So so wrong and I hate myself for years of wrongness)

You get a 17 init. Wiz gets a 15.
On 17 you ready the counter.
On 15 wiz begins to cast, you spellcraft and counter.
On 17 it is your init. (wrongwrongwrong)

If you delay your init, it drops till you choose to act.
You get a 17 init. Wiz gets a 15.
On 17 you delay.
On 16 you delay.
On 15 wiz acts first. You delayed, not readied, so you don't interrupt.
On 14 or lower you can react if able. If you do your init is now 14 or lower for the rest of the combat unless you delay again.

We handle simultaneous inits as follows.
1) Highest init modifer goes first.
2) If same highest dex goes first.
3) If same roll a die till someone wins.
(On rare occasions, if it makes sense for gameplay reasons, I resolve things simultaneously. Make both players declare there actions secretly(notes) then resolve the outcomes.)

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

If you ready an action your initiative does not change.

You get a 17 init. Wiz gets a 15.
On 17 you ready the counter.
On 15 wiz begins to cast, you spellcraft and counter.
On 17 it is your init.

I'm not sure this is how it works.

To have a complete (and more complex) example, lets say we have 3 characters.
The counterspelling Wizard has Init 17
The no-nonsense Cleric has Init 16
The about-to-be-counterspelled Sorcerer has Init 15

Init 17: Wizard moves, then readies action to counterspell the Sorcerer.
Init 16: The Cleric heals himself.
Init 15: the Sorcerer starts to cast a spell. The Wizard, having readied his action, makes his spellcraft check, and counterspells the Sorcerer's fireball.

[next round]

Init 17: nothing happens
Init 16: the Cleric ponders existence
Init 15.1: the Wizard acts
Init 15: the Sorcerer acts

AR

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

I'm not sure this is how it works.

To have a complete (and more complex) example, lets say we have 3 characters.
The counterspelling Wizard has Init 17
The no-nonsense Cleric has Init 16
The about-to-be-counterspelled Sorcerer has Init 15

Init 17: Wizard moves, then readies action to counterspell the Sorcerer.
Init 16: The Cleric heals himself.
Init 15: the Sorcerer starts to cast a spell. The Wizard, having readied his action, makes his spellcraft check, and counterspells the Sorcerer's fireball.

[next round]

Init 17: nothing happens
Init 16: the Cleric ponders existence
Init 15.1: the Wizard acts
Init 15: the Sorcerer acts

AR

Close.

Contrary to the opinion above, ready does change your init - as you've indicated. What you've shown is what I've done in my games with readied actions - the readied action person goes just before the trigger of the readied action (provided the trigger goes off) irregardless of initiative count.

Therein however, you've deviated from the rules slightly. The wizard that is counterspelling is technically going on 16 (there being no 15.1). Thus, compare the dex (or is int?) of the cleric and the wizard to determine who goes first on 16 - at least, according to the 'rules'...

I prefer the method you've shown above. After the first round of combat in my games, I do not keep track of initiative counts... I use initiative cards from "The Other Game Company" that track readied and delayed and initiative order. They can track the actual initiative count (1,2,3,5,8, etc) but I don't use that, just the end of round card to indicate the end of 1 round (for spells and end of delayed actions, etc). I don't even tell the players 'end of round' . It makes for a very smooth, free flowing combat that just feels better.

 

[kenc]

Great it looks like we all agree that the wizard who readied an action still has initiative on the next round.

I thank you all for your input, now to print this off and submit it to the DM who may or may not change his mind. <whisper> Just between us I think he is getting a little tired of my wizard counter-spelling the wizards in our encounters. He was not at all happy when I countered a stone skin that was supposed to buff an opposing warrior he then ruled my init. was one lower then the wizard I counter spell. Not much of a problem since our Dwarf warriors first action when encountering an opposing wizard is to close to grappeling range

Thanks all

Ken

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

I countered a stone skin that was supposed to buff an opposing warrior

A question relating to your situation... Stone Skin requires diamond dust (250gp's worth) as a material component. When you counterspell that spell, do you need to have (and use) the same material components?

AR