Wizards of the Coasts are overcharging us and "TSR"

[seankreynolds]

Good point Greylock! I remeber paying $20.00 for a 3rdE PHB, And THEN paying a whopping $29.95 for the "3.5" version of it.

One, as has already been discussed many times, you got the PH for $20 as a serious discount. The book was priced at $20 to bring old players into the new game without forcing them to eat more than the cost of a $20 bill. After WELL OVER A YEAR of selling the core books at $20, they set the prices to the more realistic $30. If you bought the core book in 2000 or 2001, it's really like you were paying $30 for it and getting an instant rebate of $10.

As in the the 3rdE, They swap "favorability for rules (Prestige classes vs Kits and Specialty Priests). I just like the old 2ndE feel of flavortism then the 3.5rdE's feel of rules.

Why am I not surprised that there are people out there who prefer kits and specialty priests (i.e., ways to make your character much more powerful within the rules compared to a core character) to the more balanced method of (well-designed) prestige classes?

"I hate orcs, I'll never talk to them because I hate them so much, and I am strongly inclined to attack them on sight" is NEVER an appropriate balancing factor to "I get +4 to hit and damage against orcs because I hate them so much" (which was the case in at least one orc-hater kit ... I mean, come on, if you're really good at killing orcs, being forced to fight orcs more often isn't BAD, it's something you like, and thus not a penalty). You don't balance rules with flavor, and vice versa, and that's exactly what so many of those kits did.

I noticed another drastic difference gaming products of 2nd and 3rd Editions, the "Magister" was only breifly described in Magic of Faerun. Back in 2nd edition the was a book called the Secrects of the Magister that describe a lot more how to roleplay, the duties, and specific spells relating to the office of the Magister.

Because clearly so many FR campaigns had the Magister as a key figure, ready to swoop in and save the lowly PCs when they were overwhelmed by all the bad guys. Do you really need 32 pages (or 10 pages, or even just 5 pages) on the goals, duties, and spells of a unique, super-powerful spellcaster that the author doesn't think should be a PC? (Ed suggests that a PC who becomes a Magister should become an NPC in the DM's hands, or if you insist on running a Magister PC it's probably best to handle as a one-PC adventure rather than a member of a party, or only be Magister briefly before leaving office.)

To put it another way, rather than focusing on what this really neat NPC can do, why not use those pages to give you more options for what your PCs can do? You know, the PCs, who are on-screen all the time, the people actually doing the heroic deeds you're running in your game, rather than some enigmatic NPC who if you're lucky only steals the spotlight at most once in any particular adventure?

That's the difference between 2e and 3E, and a specific change we decided on for 3E FR: Focus on the PCs and what the PCs can do, don't dwell so much on the uber-characters and characters/events of the novels. Put the action in the hands of the PCs, write material so it's useful to the PCs (even if it's in an adversarial sort of way, like spells or items in the hands of enemies or enemy orgs plotting against the PCs). There's no sense wasting pages on stuff the PCs will never find out, and wasting pages wastes the buyer's money.

Edit: Added some clarification.

 

[Estlor]

At the risk of reiterating Sean Reynolds,

But I just believe that 2ndE gaming material has a lot more options than 3rdE (2ndE Kits vs Prestige Classes), at lower level.

With all due respect, I think you're completely wrong and have misunderstood what "options" in a roleplaying game are.

A kit did not serve to supply a player with additional options. It served to give an unbalancing quantifiable bonus to a character concept that allowed players to tweak the rules in their favor. If I want to play a gladiator, would I do it as a fighter with tailored weapon and nonweapon proficiencies, or would I rather take this kit that gives me a bonus without a balancing penalty to represent my more specific bonus? Ask yourself how many elven bladesingers were created and I think you'll discover the answer to that.

In abolishing kits, WotC provided the player with a far greater number of options. For example, instead of a single kit with set bonuses or penalties gained at first level, I have hundreds of feats and dozens of skills to choose from at each level. This lets me tweak and adjust the core class to fit the concept I'm working toward. On top of that, once I get around 7th level, I can look into taking a prestige class instead of my core class to further refine my character... or not. Maybe I like that fighter's benefit more than the duelists.

Compare the 2E fighter to the 3(.5)E fighter. Every 2e fighter is virtually identical even if the character decides to use a bow instead of a sword. In 3e, my fighter could be a tight ranged combat-focused character and look completely different than your melee combat-focused fighter. We might wear the same armor and have the same weapon choices, but what I can do with my bow (and you your sword) is completely different from the other.

Another point of contention - Savage Species versus Complete Humanoids. Complete Humanoids is considered more "flavorful" than SS, and rightly so. TSR didn't find itself bogged down by the idea of keeping those races in line with each other. Instead of worrying about balance, they created phantom penalties such as level limits that never really altered the course of play because no one made it past 10th level anyway.

WotC has a different aim for D&D. They want 3(.5)e to be an experience that is enjoyable and playable through the course of at least 20 levels if not more. They've presented a number of mechanical options to do so. Likewise, they want to sell books and have targeted players as the base they need to court to succeed in this aim. Therefore we get lots of player-oriented books that give you more options to build a powerful character. We don't see a lot on the magister, for example, because HOW to play a magister isn't as important as how to BUILD one. Let the player determine how they will play a magister when they get to it, not some author that has no business controlling the game.

And, as far as costs go, the argument that the "value" in a 3(.5)e book is less than a 2e book is silly. In 2003 dollars the consumer costs of both books are virtually equal with the added benefit of hardcover, high-quality paper, and full-color interiors. Personally, I find more value in a book that only spends a page on the concept of the magister and moves on than a book that spends 100+ pages going into the concept in such detail that someone can argue with me how my magister is "wrong" or "broken" because I don't play it exactly like the book.

Further, TSR went into such insane details on subjects because they overproduced FR material to the point where that was all they had left to talk about. That's not a good thing, that's a bad thing. Not to mention expensive and straight-jacket in nature when trying to play in the world. It's okay to make the DM think from time to time. In fact, it's good for him.

 

[Erik Mona]

Have you notice the difference between the amount of content in 2nd Edition and 3rd (3.5) Edition products? For example, just take a look at the book "Faiths and Avatars" compared to the more recently produced "Faiths and Patheons". Notice any differences?!? I do; for starters look at the price of the two books: 2ndE F&A ($25.00) vs 3rdE F&P ($32.95).

It's because the AWESOME authors on the newer hardback were worth so much more, I'll reckon.

--Erik Mona

 

[RFisher]

Wizards of the Coasts are overcharging us

Yes. You are entirely correct. Check out Far Future Enterprises reprints of classic Traveller. They are less expensive than the originals even before adjusting for inflation. & classic Traveller, despite being so old, is still one of the best roleplaying games ever printed. (Although I'm sure someone will now chime in with one of the usual snipes at the game...)

The QLI reprint of Books 1-3 is less expensive than FFE's Book 1-8 reprint & probably also cheaper than the originals.

Many second-hand AD&D & classic D&D books can also be found at very good prices. Many of the modules & sourcebooks can be as useful with any roleplaying game as they were with the game they were written for.

 

[Virel]

Say starting out the first year you game you buy $150 worth of WotC books. You play 50 weekends for ~4 hours each session for 200 hours of gaming time. Your entertainment cost about .75 cents an hour and your have a set of books you can keep using if you keep playing. Of course if you factor in the fun reading the books, planning characters, reviewing rules etc one can easily add another 100 to 200 hours of fun in. So the real cost might be as little as 37.5 cents an hour.

While I play and DM 1st ed AD&D, I also play in a 3e game. I have the three core 3.0 rule books, Relics & Rituals, Oriental Adventures, Necropolis & the GreyHawk Gazette. Grand total since some of the books are used and some new is $140.

I've played for a total 18 hours in 3e. I've spent probably 50 hours reading and pouring over these books. Some of it just to see what I can rip off for my 1st ed game. So 68 hours and $140 spent and I've got many hours to go! Just a hair over $2 an hour and the cost is dropping.

 

[JPL]

It's because the AWESOME authors on the newer hardback were worth so much more, I'll reckon.

--Erik Mona

And fine handsome men, as well. Popular with the ladies, no doubt.

[That 2nd Edition Faiths and Pantheons really is a great book, though, I'll give Virg that, notwithstanding some really ill-conceived specialty priest classes. But softcover and no color art. And the 3.0 FRCS is the best Realms product ever. Period. A beautiful thing.]

 

[kenobi65]

Yes. You are entirely correct. Check out Far Future Enterprises reprints of classic Traveller. They are less expensive than the originals even before adjusting for inflation.

IMO, that's an apples-to-oranges comparison. The cost of the originals undoubtedly included GDW paying for the development and writing of those rules and supplements. Even if FFE is paying a royalty to whoever owns the Traveller license, not having to pay for the development costs is a significant difference.

And, in any case, I'm not sure what this example has to do with the prices of 3.5 D&D books, relative to 2E D&D books.

 

[Desdichado]

Although I'm sure someone will now chime in with one of the usual snipes at the game...

Probably not, actually. But if you hadn't made such an outrageous statement, just begging to be corrected, you could have ensured that no snipes against Traveller were made.

I'm actually a fan of Classic Traveller, but it'd be a cold day in hell before I call it one of the best games ever made.

 

[WizarDru]

Yes. You are entirely correct. Check out Far Future Enterprises reprints of classic Traveller. They are less expensive than the originals even before adjusting for inflation.

Not quite. First off, they aren't reprinted in the same format. They're straight reprints in a single book, with literally NO changes...not even a new TOC, page renumberings or index. It's a different format reprint of material that's about 27 years old. Not exactly the same thing as comparing the AD&D PHB and the 3e PHB, or the original Traveller box set with more recent versions, such as GURPS Traveller. The only reformating done was to print two pages of the original books to for every single page on the new version, since the size is different. So again, not an apples to apples comparison. In point of fact, it reinforces Hellhound, SKR, John Wick's and others data.

From an RPG.net review:
"Are these the LBBs? No, not quite. The content is exactly there (1981 revision for the basic books), and the cover is black with the red stripe--but the format is a perfect bound 11" X 8.5" landscape single volume. The old pages appear two to a page, side by side. It appears to be a good quality print job--nice glossy cover."

From Traveller Reviews:
"The reprints are 8.5x11 or so, and put 2 pages of the old books onto one page in the reprint. The makes the book open like some sunday cartoon collections. While a bit odd to use, it was really the only choice. Trust me you get use to it. The only hard thing for a new comer, will be the reprints have not renumbered the pages. Again this was the only way to do it."

 

[Shemeska]

Thanks for the rely Vartan! To my understandering, the "fluff vs church" arguement is really speaking about the "roleplaying ideas vs rules". Like you mentioned before, I love playing the 3rdE D&D. But I just believe that 2ndE gaming material has a lot more options than 3rdE (2ndE Kits vs Prestige Classes), at lower level.

I only started playing in 3e, and I vastly prefer the flavor and detail in many 2e products compared to the 3e products covering the same things (granted since I'm looking back at the 2e stuff after the fact, I may be cherry-picking here from the best of that edition). However the numbers of 3e are much better and many time more flexible than the 2e material. Looking back at the idea of kits I think they were a lousy idea, and I like the idea of PrCs much more so.

However I've noticed a trend emerging with the introduction of new base classes that seem to me to be a return to the 2e kit idea, also the PrCs that give dual spellcasting progression, etc as being almost a return to some folks' 2e elven mage/priest/thief builds. I can't say I like the idea, but I can always say no to it in games of mine since it's not the exclusive choice to use, but an option.