Wizards Sells Off GenCon!
- Thread starter El_Gringo
- Start date
Henry@home
First Post
I think your nose looks fine, PA. 
Y'know, it would be a REAL kick if we could get Peter Adkinson to peek his nose in on this board once in a while, wouldn't it? Maybe he could clear up a few questions that some of us have, such as when he starts official management of the Con, and if he has any thoughts on contracting with organizedplay, at all?
Y'know, it would be a REAL kick if we could get Peter Adkinson to peek his nose in on this board once in a while, wouldn't it? Maybe he could clear up a few questions that some of us have, such as when he starts official management of the Con, and if he has any thoughts on contracting with organizedplay, at all?
I agree with Henry and others that the move to Indianapolis is already a done deal. I was just thinking wishfully about a return to Milwaukee... 
It's also true that there's way more room in Indianapolis. My in-laws and apparently a lot of other folks in Milwaukee think that the city really blew it. They believe Milwaukee could've provided additional facilities, more quickly, and kept GenCon--and all the money it brings to the city.
It's also true that there's way more room in Indianapolis. My in-laws and apparently a lot of other folks in Milwaukee think that the city really blew it. They believe Milwaukee could've provided additional facilities, more quickly, and kept GenCon--and all the money it brings to the city.
Don't mean to be the lone devil's advocate here, but one thing is worrying me about this decision.
Gencon, and cons in general, don't make a ton of money. Folks who know folks who organize smaller cons know that they have to struggle just to break even. Cons the size of Origins and Gencon have economies of scale, and do OK, but if they were cash cows, Hasbro wouldn't have sold them.
No, where they are most useful is as marketing vehicles. It is a forum to show off your new stuff, as well as increase the size of the market by inspiring awe in saucer-eyed newbies. Remember your first Gencon, and the sudden realization that you are in a convention center with tens of thousands of people just like you and all you are expected to do for the next 96 hours is eat and play games? (And buy games, but that is subtext).
So if it is a vehicle to sell games, what use would an individual or company with no games to sell get out of owning it? It falls back to direct profit from the con, and we know that is not huge.
I don't know Peter, so I cannot speak to his motivations or capabilities. But assuming he is a guy who likes making money and is not doing this out of altruism, one can therefore assume his primary goal will not be making Gencon better, but making Gencon more profitable. We do that by increasing revenues and reducing costs, folks. Does this mean we Gencon attendees will be paying more for less in the future? It is one possible scenario. Will he raise the prices for exhibition so that small presses might not be able to afford to come? Another possibility.
I for one was most comfortable when it was a marketing arm of a large corporation. Those guys get pretty big budgets, and their main job is to create buzz and flash, and leave people with good feelings about their product (in our case, games and gaming). All the makings of a great con.
Just my $0.02...
Gencon, and cons in general, don't make a ton of money. Folks who know folks who organize smaller cons know that they have to struggle just to break even. Cons the size of Origins and Gencon have economies of scale, and do OK, but if they were cash cows, Hasbro wouldn't have sold them.
No, where they are most useful is as marketing vehicles. It is a forum to show off your new stuff, as well as increase the size of the market by inspiring awe in saucer-eyed newbies. Remember your first Gencon, and the sudden realization that you are in a convention center with tens of thousands of people just like you and all you are expected to do for the next 96 hours is eat and play games? (And buy games, but that is subtext).
So if it is a vehicle to sell games, what use would an individual or company with no games to sell get out of owning it? It falls back to direct profit from the con, and we know that is not huge.
I don't know Peter, so I cannot speak to his motivations or capabilities. But assuming he is a guy who likes making money and is not doing this out of altruism, one can therefore assume his primary goal will not be making Gencon better, but making Gencon more profitable. We do that by increasing revenues and reducing costs, folks. Does this mean we Gencon attendees will be paying more for less in the future? It is one possible scenario. Will he raise the prices for exhibition so that small presses might not be able to afford to come? Another possibility.
I for one was most comfortable when it was a marketing arm of a large corporation. Those guys get pretty big budgets, and their main job is to create buzz and flash, and leave people with good feelings about their product (in our case, games and gaming). All the makings of a great con.
Just my $0.02...
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Wulf Ratbane
Adventurer
Peter is brilliant and he loves gaming, and he probably has about $300 million in the bank.
Even if he were to run the convention at a loss, he could do it for a very long time. He can afford such eccentricities.
What is more likely, however, is that he will find a way to market it so that it is more fun and more profitable.
I don't worry one bit.
Wulf
Even if he were to run the convention at a loss, he could do it for a very long time. He can afford such eccentricities.
What is more likely, however, is that he will find a way to market it so that it is more fun and more profitable.
I don't worry one bit.
Wulf
Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad
I'll say it again. If they want GenCon to make more money, move the damn thing out of the midwest, and into a major population center. San Diego is a good bet, since they are a convention city, and a short drive from Los Angeles, the most populated city in the United States. It's also a location that professionals WANT to visit, since it is much easier to justify a flight to a beach resort than to a frosty mid-west town to ones family. Other good locations include New York, Miami, and Seattle, all larger population centers. Probably even the Dalla-Fort Worth area would work well too. Just something close to a larger number of people. It's just plain silly to continue to try and justify the mid-west based on tradition or false visions of populations within driving distance. I know everyone is going to jump out of the woodwork now and try to list driving distances from population blocks and again justify the current location. But if you're honest with yourself, you will crunch the numbers for yourself, and figure out there are MUCH better places to have the con than its current location. Los Angeles County alone has a greater population than all of Indiana and Wisconsin combined! Yes, I know there are other population centers within driving distance of the Indiana and Wisconsin locations, but even with those drives, if you add in the drives to, say, Los Angeles (or any of those other cities I mentioned), the mid-west is still beat by generally 2-1. (check it out for yourself at http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/). It just makes no economic sense to have the con in the mid-west. I mean, even the flights are cheaper to those bigger cities (being hubs), and the accomodations are more plentiful.
Okay, let all the mid-west people who really just want to be able to have an easy drive to the con themselves come out and rant about the idea of moving the con to a big population center. I mean, god forbid we allow the greatest number of gamers the easiest access to the con, right?
Okay, let all the mid-west people who really just want to be able to have an easy drive to the con themselves come out and rant about the idea of moving the con to a big population center. I mean, god forbid we allow the greatest number of gamers the easiest access to the con, right?
Wulf Ratbane
Adventurer
Your hypothesis assumes that a greater population center automatically translates to a greater number of gamers, which is not necessarily so.
I would be willing to bet a big hunk of cheese that Wisconsin has more gamers per capita than LA County.
There are far better things to do with your time in California than sit inside and play RPGs.
More to the point, if you think for a second that WOTC hasn't done a market analysis on where the greatest concentration of gamers is, you're kidding yourself. We're talking about the masters of Organized Play. They leave nothing to chance.
Wulf
I would be willing to bet a big hunk of cheese that Wisconsin has more gamers per capita than LA County.
There are far better things to do with your time in California than sit inside and play RPGs.
More to the point, if you think for a second that WOTC hasn't done a market analysis on where the greatest concentration of gamers is, you're kidding yourself. We're talking about the masters of Organized Play. They leave nothing to chance.
Wulf
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Mistwell said:
Actually, this has nothing to do with it.
I used to live in New york City. The very first SF con was held there. There are no SF cons held in NYC proper, any more. None. Why? Too expensive. Much, much, cheaper to hold them in Jersey or PA or the like.
Likewise, San Francisico. No cons are ever held in SF -- just in the surrounding regions.
The midwest is *cheap*. Cheap food, cheap hotels, cheap convention space. (I mean, think about it. It's the MIDWEST. What ELSE does it have going for it, besides cheap?) Moving GenCon to someplace civilized would probably kill it.
Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad
Again, more justifications not based on facts, but speculation.
There is simply no evidence that WOTC has ever done a market analysis for the location of GenCon. I doubt they have, but I'm willing to listen to proof on the matter from somebody that knows. I would think GenCon never played an important enough role for them to do a full market analysis (such things cost a LOT of money). However, the locations of WOTC stores might be a good indication...which would lead you to population centers.
And then there is the standard "we have more gamers". Bullcrap. All you need to do is look at Wizards sales stats (or just check where they have located WOTC stores for gods sake!) The number of gamers do fluctuate with different geographic populations, but overall you still have more gamers in the larger population centers.
And then we have the "but it costs too much" claim. I never said put the Con in downtown New York City. I just said put it near the larger population centers. There are plenty of cities in reasonable driving distance of the northeast population centers that do not cost a lot of money. Besides, like I said, try some place like San Diego, which is a convention city. It's where the national comics convention is held, and that con does MASSIVE business from all across the country, drawing primarily sci-fi and fantasy fans already. Same argument goes for the "we have more gamers" claim. If there is nothing better to do in sunny Southern Cal, then why does the comics convention do such boomimg business there?
I just don't get it. Other than self-interest in your own drive/costs of getting to the con, why would people oppose putting the con where the most number of people are?
There is simply no evidence that WOTC has ever done a market analysis for the location of GenCon. I doubt they have, but I'm willing to listen to proof on the matter from somebody that knows. I would think GenCon never played an important enough role for them to do a full market analysis (such things cost a LOT of money). However, the locations of WOTC stores might be a good indication...which would lead you to population centers.
And then there is the standard "we have more gamers". Bullcrap. All you need to do is look at Wizards sales stats (or just check where they have located WOTC stores for gods sake!) The number of gamers do fluctuate with different geographic populations, but overall you still have more gamers in the larger population centers.
And then we have the "but it costs too much" claim. I never said put the Con in downtown New York City. I just said put it near the larger population centers. There are plenty of cities in reasonable driving distance of the northeast population centers that do not cost a lot of money. Besides, like I said, try some place like San Diego, which is a convention city. It's where the national comics convention is held, and that con does MASSIVE business from all across the country, drawing primarily sci-fi and fantasy fans already. Same argument goes for the "we have more gamers" claim. If there is nothing better to do in sunny Southern Cal, then why does the comics convention do such boomimg business there?
I just don't get it. Other than self-interest in your own drive/costs of getting to the con, why would people oppose putting the con where the most number of people are?
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