Pathfinder 1E Wizkids should take the Pathfinder 1.0 ruleset and publish their own RPG.

[Imaro]

I don't think that the idiom "it takes two to tango" is being aptly used in this context.

Neverthless... I think you got the point.

I do not have an issue with 5e as a ruleset nor do I believe myself to be attacking 5e. My issue has more to do with its effects on the market for non-5e based games and with a subset of its online community (for a variety of reasons).

So who is @Parmandur defending it against??

The idea that "5e cannot do everything" is not an attack, nor should it be construed as one. And IMHO, that's part of the problem, the fact that people read what should otherwise be an uncontroversial statement - i.e., "5e cannot do everything" - as some form of attack on 5e. It's ludicrous. Fate cannot do everything. I'm not attacking Fate. PbtA cannot do everything. I am not attacking PbtA. I am making an admission on the limitations that these game systems have in simulating and engendering different RPG experiences.

Lol... yep because thats all that was said...

Seems like a false equivalence given how neither of these game systems have anwhere close to the market hegemony that 5e enjoys.

So you're mad about popularity?? I thought you were raging against the stifling of creativity...

You quote a post of mine that even leads with "I do not hate 5e"? And I am not sure how anyone could competently construe the second quote as an attack on 5e.

Claiming something doesn't make it true... especially when ones posting habits tell a different story.

 

[Parmandur]

I don't think that the idiom "it takes two to tango" is being aptly used in this context.

I do not have an issue with 5e as a ruleset nor do I believe myself to be attacking 5e. My issue has more to do with its effects on the market for non-5e based games and with a subset of its online community (for a variety of reasons).

The idea that "5e cannot do everything" is not an attack, nor should it be construed as one. And IMHO, that's part of the problem, the fact that people read what should otherwise be an uncontroversial statement - i.e., "5e cannot do everything" - as some form of attack on 5e. It's ludicrous. Fate cannot do everything. I'm not attacking Fate. PbtA cannot do everything. I am not attacking PbtA. I am making an admission on the limitations that these game systems have in simulating and engendering different RPG experiences.

Seems like a false equivalence given how neither of these game systems have anwhere close to the market hegemony that 5e enjoys.

You quote a post of mine that even leads with "I do not hate 5e"? And I am not sure how anyone could competently construe the second quote as an attack on 5e.

I think PbtA and Fate can be used to tell any story. System doesn't matter.

 

[Aldarc]

So who is @Parmandur defending it against??

This is mentioned in what you quoted later:

And IMHO, that's part of the problem, the fact that people read what should otherwise be an uncontroversial statement - i.e., "5e cannot do everything" - as some form of attack on 5e.

IMHO, Parmandur is fundamentally and unnecessarily defending 5e against nothing. So I suppose your question is an apt one to make, because whatever he is defending it against, it's certainly not an attack on 5e.

Lol... yep because thats all that was said...

Where is the attack in the rest, @Imaro? If you have an accusation to make against me, then make it and stop dancing around it with snark.

So you're mad about popularity?? I thought you were raging against the stifling of creativity...

I would recommend (if not appreciate) reading and listening to what I wrote with some good faith. But I do not think that reducing this to being "mad about popularity" is a fair representation of my opinion or arguments.

Claiming something doesn't make it true... especially when ones posting habits tell a different story.

None of this explains how what I said was an attack on 5e does it?

 

[Xenonnonex]

This sort of nonsensical platitude is worthy of being fortune cookie wisdom.

Yet it is common sense. Which has been so aptly demonstrated is not so common.

A non sequitur to both our respective questions, no? Anecdotally people may profess their love for 5e, but the issue is not that people may love 5e but how inexperienced a fair number these people are, anecdotally and all that, with games outside of 5e.

No because even my anecdote follows on from and backs up what is posed. I presume the cases where people have rediscovered their love for rpgs after a lengthy hiatus are likewise inexperienced. And there is quite a large number of people rediscovering their loves for rpgs after playing 5e. It is great to lump these gamers into the same basket. You would also get inexperienced gamers professing their love for 5e because 5e is streamlined enough for ease of play. But be sure to criticize the inexperience these gamers have and their love for the hobby.

I have not seen all that much in the way of innovative mechanics come out of the 5e compatible lines. A lot of retreading of similar ideas with reskinned ideas and mechanics. So I'm not sure if "creative" comes to my mind when I look through 5e compatible materials. There is arguably more innovative mechanics that have come out of OSR than 5e. But maybe you have some innovative mechanics in mind that I am not aware of.

I skeptical that if Wizards increased their release cycle that 5e Stargate or many of these other 5e products that I had mentioned would not exist. The market ubiquity is connected with the stifling of creativity. There are a lot of overlapping products doing the same thing with little actual mechanical innovations.

I am sure the mechanics in Adventures in Middle Earth, Esper Genesis and Ultramodern5 to name a few are a complete retread with lots of reskinned ideas and mechanics. I am sure that all of the standalone 5e powered rpgs that don't require the core rules to run them are just a retreading of similar ideas with reskinned ideas and mechanics. I am sure all of these products are just doing the same thing with little actual mechanical innovation.

I do play other systems (outside of D&D). Cypher System. Blades in the Dark. Fate (Accelerated). Dungeon World. Savage Worlds. Fantasy AGE / Blue Rose. Index Card RPG. And hopefully I can get around to Invisible Sun, Afterlife: Wandering Souls, and possibly Pathfinder 2, but I can't play everything at once. But you know, if I only play some more systems then my reading of 5e's effect on the market will somehow be forgotten or something.

Then continue playing those systems. And since it is bothering you so much get out of playing 5e. Our group did that. And we are all the more happier for it.

 

[Imaro]

This is mentioned in what you quoted later:
IMHO, Parmandur is fundamentally and unnecessarily defending 5e against nothing. So I suppose your question is an apt one to make, because whatever he is defending it against, it's certainly not an attack on 5e.

Where is the attack in the rest, @Imaro? If you have an accusation to make against me, then make it and stop dancing around it with snark.

I would recommend (if not appreciate) reading and listening to what I wrote with some good faith. But I do not think that reducing this to being "mad about popularity" is a fair representation of my opinion or arguments.

None of this explains how what I said was an attack on 5e does it?

Here you go a collection of subtle and not so subtle digs at 5e that you made while arguing it can't do everything...

Would 5e have been anywhere as successful if it did not have the D&D brand and corporate marketing? If it had been just a 3pp fantasy heartbreaker?

D&D. 5e is a fairly mediocre system that works well enough for most for its main purpose

Anecdotally people may profess their love for 5e, but the issue is not that people may love 5e but how inexperienced a fair number these people are, anecdotally and all that, with games outside of 5e.

I have not seen all that much in the way of innovative mechanics come out of the 5e compatible lines. A lot of retreading of similar ideas with reskinned ideas and mechanics. So I'm not sure if "creative" comes to my mind when I look through 5e compatible materials. There is arguably more innovative mechanics that have come out of OSR than 5e. But maybe you have some innovative mechanics in mind that I am not aware of.

Now watch the squirming begin in how these aren't attacks... but again what is @Parmandur defending (your words not mine) against if all you said was 5e isn't good for everything??

 

[Imaro]

Then continue playing those systems. And since it is bothering you so much get out of playing 5e. Our group did that. And we are all the more happier for it.

It really is this simple...

 

[Arilyn]

This is getting silly. I play 5e, I enjoy it, but does this mean I can't be critical of how it is swamping the hobby? This has always been a problem with D&D. And when it gets out of hand, yes, it eats away at other companies, which is too bad. That's what we're saying. Right now there are lots of other games, but it's a concern.

And yes, of course system matters. I can't do Puppetland or Ars Magica, or Vampire or Ashen Stars or Magical Kitties or Sorcerer or Everway using D&D rules, just like if I'm in the mood for D&D style play, I'm not reaching for WoD, or Call of Cthulhu.

 

[Parmandur]

This is getting silly. I play 5e, I enjoy it, but does this mean I can't be critical of how it is swamping the hobby? This has always been a problem with D&D. And when it gets out of hand, yes, it eats away at other companies, which is too bad. That's what we're saying. Right now there are lots of other games, but it's a concern.

And yes, of course system matters. I can't do Puppetland or Ars Magica, or Vampire or Ashen Stars or Magical Kitties or Sorcerer or Everway using D&D rules, just like if I'm in the mood for D&D style play, I'm not reaching for WoD, or Call of Cthulhu.

Other companies seem to be doing fine, both making 5E and non-D&D products. The concern doesn't seem grounded in anything solid.

Of course you can play any of those settings or stories with any of the systems in question interchangeably.

 

[darjr]

I think concern about a monoculture is good. Though at this point. I think it’s mostly unwarranted. Maybe.

Also I think on the whole scale, system doesn’t matter, but for the individual it most certainly can, and on the average across rpg gamers it does.

 

[Xenonnonex]

This is getting silly. I play 5e, I enjoy it, but does this mean I can't be critical of how it is swamping the hobby? This has always been a problem with D&D. And when it gets out of hand, yes, it eats away at other companies, which is too bad. That's what we're saying. Right now there are lots of other games, but it's a concern.

And yes, of course system matters. I can't do Puppetland or Ars Magica, or Vampire or Ashen Stars or Magical Kitties or Sorcerer or Everway using D&D rules, just like if I'm in the mood for D&D style play, I'm not reaching for WoD, or Call of Cthulhu.

You should take it up with the general public then. Because the public has been driving it. Remember official 5e is still sticking to its slow release schedule.

As had been said before other rpg companies do not need to measure their success on 5e. And you not need to measure the success of other companies on 5e.