Wolfgang's "Demonweb Q&A"

[JustKim]

Cant is possibly the thing I hate most about Planescape (with the possible exception of some of the art).

Cheers!

I ran a Planescape game last year and one of the players told me he hated the cant, so I edited it out of everything. I thought it wouldn't be a big deal, but there ended up being a hollow ring to many conversations. Cant words that seemed to just replace other words, like barmy or cutter, actually describe something integral to the Sigil experience. What are Bleakers if not barmies? If a PC is not a cutter, what is he?

Granted, "bone-box" is pretty idiotic.

 

[MerricB]

The trouble I've always had with the cant is, though I'm sure it's great for adding flavour to Planescape adventures, it had the effect of also excluding anyone who wasn't interested in Planescape. So, the planes became this exclusive club.

Cheers!

 

[gizmo33]

Now, I entirely agree with the first bit. I do believe the giants and drow series were better (particularly as I recently cracked open my G series modules for a bit of nostalgia tripping). But Tomb of Horrors? Why is that being held up as a great bit of adventure design? Actually, my question would be, why would a very good adventure designer like W.G. point to that module in particular as a "great module" since it departs pretty heavily from what I've read from him the past.

I think the giant mechanical spider ironically could be a symbol for what people don't understand about ToH. Sometimes when I read about what some folks consider to be a good adventure module, with stat blocks, and EL-appropriate encounters and all that, I think of something like a giant mechanical spider.

The mech-spider would be a lame idea even if it had a well-designed stat block (complete with break DC, hardness, and the rest). Folks that don't get ToH probably can't figure out what's wrong with the spider-machine either. Since many folks are always crying "nostalgia" every time you say something nice about an old module, I'd assume that they'd be doubly shocked, not only that Wolfgang's opinions might be more nuanced than they thought, but that folks don't like the spider-machine even though their nostalgia theories would predict the opposite.

The ToH, Q1, and so on are creative works, and as such I think they will always escape easy, mechanical "proofs" that they are good or bad. A good creative design probably captures an atmosphere or idea that is compelling to the reader/gamer, and I think ToH does so far better than it's mechanical design would suggest. I think the likely explanation for all this is that Wolfgang understands this. And that Wolfgang's opinions on module design are not quite what you thought.

 

[Numion]

A good creative design probably captures an atmosphere or idea that is compelling to the reader/gamer, and I think ToH does so far better than it's mechanical design would suggest.

But, would good mechanical design make the adventure worse, is the important question.

 

[gizmo33]

The trouble I've always had with the cant is, though I'm sure it's great for adding flavour to Planescape adventures, it had the effect of also excluding anyone who wasn't interested in Planescape. So, the planes became this exclusive club.

Which is peculiar to me because the outer planes are home to the gods, and the afterlife, and in many/most conceptions of the fantasy universe the gods are the originaters of culture and civilization. And yet the "cant" of their environment (among other things) is "anachronistic" (well, hopefully you know what I mean) and seems completely alien to the DnD world.

The gods, who are spiritual/moral beings involved in fate, life/death and all the rest, find themselves surrounded by this amoral, science-fiction environment. Somehow a typical DnD "Prime Material Plane" is more full of spiritual significance than the very dimensions that are suppose to have generated those symbols/ideas. With Planescape what was above certainly did not reflect what was below.

Then again, I suppose that the sacred manuscripts in some people's campaigns could have contained words like "berk", but I suspect for most people that's not the case. In a situation like Planescape where it was TSR/WotC's primary vision for the outer planes, I was really disappointed. I suspect that some people just find it easier to write science fiction.

 

[gizmo33]

But, would good mechanical design make the adventure worse, is the important question.

? Is it?
My answer (if that is the important question), is - no. A "good mechanical design" (as defined by 3E) would improve adventures, including ToH.

But I thought the important question was "why did Wolfgang say what he did", namely, why does he like ToH but not Q1. Seems likely to me that game mechanics is not a significant factor in his opinion here.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

Which is peculiar to me because the outer planes are home to the gods, and the afterlife, and in many/most conceptions of the fantasy universe the gods are the originaters of culture and civilization. And yet the "cant" of their environment (among other things) is "anachronistic" (well, hopefully you know what I mean) and seems completely alien to the DnD world.

Just using that quote as a springboard:

My problem with the cant is that I can't understand what the NPCs are saying.

DM: He turns to you says [something that sounds like gibberish].
Me: What did he say?
DM: He said [gibberish].
Me: Yeah, but what does that mean?
DM: He said since you're new here you'll need to go speak to the secretary and arrange a meeting with the leader of the guild.
Me: Why didn't he just say so.
DM: He did.

I made it through the torment game by reading the journal to decipher some of the NPC comments! Heck, I've been playing in the FR since about 2001 and I'm just starting to get the geography straight. What chance do I have with a messed up dialect?

 

[Dragonbait]

Development was.... strange in other ways. What seemed to me to be the best playtest recommendation was not adopted. I'm too far removed from WotC current processes to say any more than that. You'd have to ask the developer.

Um, anyone know anything about this part? I'd love to know what he is talking about.

Oh, and as for my HO on the thread-jack: Planars are arrogant so-and-so's because they live with the powers and the like, and they know that their beliefs shape the multiverse. Anything that separates them from the rest of the "normal" D&D worlds is probably appropriate. RPGs are games that rely on communication. Other cultural differences would probably be too easy to miss or ignore in a typical session, but not if a character uses a bunch of weird words whenever they talk.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

Since I'm not familier with the original set of adventures I have to ask:

What was up with the mechanical spider?

I can see was ot make sit fit. If was just a "you enter the room and attacked by a giant mechanical spider" then yes, that would be bad. Why would they need even MORE spiders down there?

But if it was supposed to be a guard that doesn't eat or sleep; since it was built by a drow of course it would look like a spider in its basic shape.

What's the story behind the spider?

 

[gizmo33]

What's the story behind the spider?

In Q1, Lolth lives in a giant mechanical spider that wanders around some desert dimension.