Wolfgang's "Demonweb Q&A"

[gizmo33]

And I really don't get the whole "science fiction" environment notion. The various PS books tried their best to insert a sense of wonder, awe and grandeur into the planes. They were landscapes of manifest belief where the warping effects of mortal belief and faith meshed with pre-existant qualia of alignment. Stressed above everything else was that belief = power. Gods and their followers warred over theology, fiends butchered one another over the clash of diametrically opposite conceptions of Evil, and the factions fought a war of words over the meaning of reality and the underlying nature of the multiverse.

Is that "science fiction", or a removal or watering down of "spiritual significance"?

No. First of all, a sense of wonder is not inconsistent with science fiction.

Secondly, if we agreed that Planescape did what you said it does, then we probably would be in agreement. If Planescape tackled those issues that you say, and did so in a setting-neutral way (and maybe that's more the issue), then I imagine that it would/will be incorporated into future products conception of the outer planes. If, as in the case of the cant, it's too quirky and weird, then I think, like the cant, it will be bypassed in future designs.

Or should we go back to Lolth's giant mechanical spider from Q1? Of maybe the chain-smoking solar with the texas accent from H4?

I'm not really interested in the edition war thing either, so jibbing at random 1E products isn't really relevant. In fact, you provide more good examples of "what not to do with the outer planes in DnD" IMO. And apparently, the mech-spider and Sigil-cant both got the same vote in the new Demonweb design (thumbs down) - I think that speaks for itself.

If Sigil turned people off initially, I could see it turning them off of the rest of the line that came later, often with a very different feel from Sigil itself.

I think Planescape is a great read, and like Spelljammer, can probably be incorporated into a typical campaign in pieces. However, as I recall (and it's been a while) it was just too strange to use most of it, for either my homebrew or a Greyhawk/FR campaign. Planescape IMO, being TSR/WotCs development of the outer planes, had more of an obligation to be setting neutral than Spelljammer, Raveloft, Dark-Sun, etc.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Don't be so hard on Eberron, I think it's more interesting than grognards whining about robots.

Oh, I like Eberron. I'm just amused by the whinards who use it as an excuse to dislike something new.

 

[Nightfall]

You should try Lost temple of Demogorgon (DUNGEON mag..check my sig).

Lost Temple was/is fun.

I hear you though. The Orcus cliche is as overdone as the evil-cult theme.

jh

Uhm I think you mis understood Tharen and myself. We figure EVERYTHING in the Abyss has to involve Orcus at some point. Fortunately for us, this adventure does so. Thanks Wolfgang!

*isn't against Eberron because it's new.* I just don't care much for the flying things that aren't living creatures.

 

[Agamon]

Oh, I like Eberron. I'm just amused by the whinards who use it as an excuse to dislike something new.

That's an interesting assumption. I, for one, didn't care much about it, one way or the other, when I knew next to nothing about it. Now that I know more about it, I really don't like it much.

 

[grodog]

Cant is possibly the thing I hate most about Planescape (with the possible exception of some of the art).

Hear, hear! I may have to check this book out afterall

 

[Kobold Avenger]

The thing is with me having almost every Planescape product there is (except Something Wild and In The Abyss) I can perfectly understand reading the cant in all of those books. Trying to talk the cant, is another matter and it's just something I dropped.

I'd rather just use modern curse words, and some modern day British slang (I'm Canadian) in place of the cant. But to me, it was never an integral part of the setting, Faction War stated enough that the cant in Sigil changes often anyways.

 

[Nightfall]

Well after talking with a source that has the book, I'm considering revising my opinion on using this book.

 

[Delta]

The one thing I'll say in defense of Q1 (the first published outer-planes adventure) is that coming to the outer planes, I expect to have some mind-blowing impossible surprise in the environment. I was the right age when it came out that the giant mechanical spider made of doomed souls gave me that totally-unexpected jolt and I thought it was crazy-cool. Yes, I can understand and totally respect the criticism. But I think I prefer that to something like "Lord of the Iron Fortress" where an outer plane is just a bunch of mostly mundane villages with homes & shops & businesses & whatnot.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think the other planes leading off of the Demonweb did a better job of conveying the possibilities of the outer planes. The Demonweb itself, and the Mechospider were the definite low-points of the module.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I think the other planes leading off of the Demonweb did a better job of conveying the possibilities of the outer planes.

Agreed. I love the notion of the "main" dungeon of a module also serving as the nexus point for exploring other, more "out-there" locales. In fact, I'd love to see that idea expanded on, with the "sub-planes" (or whatever conceit was used in its place in this hypothetical adventure) expanded into whole side trek adventures.