Wolfgang's "Demonweb Q&A"

[Hussar]

I think the giant mechanical spider ironically could be a symbol for what people don't understand about ToH. Sometimes when I read about what some folks consider to be a good adventure module, with stat blocks, and EL-appropriate encounters and all that, I think of something like a giant mechanical spider.

The mech-spider would be a lame idea even if it had a well-designed stat block (complete with break DC, hardness, and the rest). Folks that don't get ToH probably can't figure out what's wrong with the spider-machine either. Since many folks are always crying "nostalgia" every time you say something nice about an old module, I'd assume that they'd be doubly shocked, not only that Wolfgang's opinions might be more nuanced than they thought, but that folks don't like the spider-machine even though their nostalgia theories would predict the opposite.

The ToH, Q1, and so on are creative works, and as such I think they will always escape easy, mechanical "proofs" that they are good or bad. A good creative design probably captures an atmosphere or idea that is compelling to the reader/gamer, and I think ToH does so far better than it's mechanical design would suggest. I think the likely explanation for all this is that Wolfgang understands this. And that Wolfgang's opinions on module design are not quite what you thought.

I completely agree that the mech spider was lame. Although, when I read it the first time, like Delta, I thought it was kinda cool.

However, I didn't make any reference to mechanics or anything else. I was just surprised that he held up the Giants series as an example of a great module and placed Tomb of Horrors in the same category. Giants is, IMHO, a great set. Lots of stuff to do, and pretty much every time you play it, it would be different. Very non-linear. TOH is not what I would call a fantastic module. Every time you play it, it will likely be a very similar experience, much of the module is geared towards random death. It's not like there's anything to roleplay in the whole module, nothing talks. It's one long grind to the end.

 

[Shadeydm]

Aww man, I was hoping the spider ship would remain. Nothing amuses me more than when pewling grognards whine about "robots" in Eberron.

Yes because Eberron is so awsome I bet you can't wait for the next source book where PC robots can take feats to become Transformers. yay! /vomit

 

[Razz]

Hmm new monsters, new prestige classes, a planar adventure, and...Sigil!?

Looks like this will be the very first adventure module I'll purchase this year since City of the Spider Queen

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

That's an interesting assumption. I, for one, didn't care much about it, one way or the other, when I knew next to nothing about it. Now that I know more about it, I really don't like it much.

Its hardly an assumption when its the most common complaint I've seen.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Yes because Eberron is so awsome I bet you can't wait for the next source book where PC robots can take feats to become Transformers. yay! /vomit

Case in point.

 

[gizmo33]

I completely agree that the mech spider was lame. Although, when I read it the first time, like Delta, I thought it was kinda cool.

When I first read it, as best as I can recall, I remember being disappointed (and confused) that Lolth didn't live in a pit with spiderwebs around (like Krull, was what I was thinking). There's a cool illustration on the back with some fighter hanging in a web in mid-air. The picture on the front looks like a temple. Neither one really shows the spaceship angle.

However, I didn't make any reference to mechanics or anything else. I was just surprised that he held up the Giants series as an example of a great module and placed Tomb of Horrors in the same category. Giants is, IMHO, a great set. Lots of stuff to do, and pretty much every time you play it, it would be different. Very non-linear. TOH is not what I would call a fantastic module. Every time you play it, it will likely be a very similar experience, much of the module is geared towards random death. It's not like there's anything to roleplay in the whole module, nothing talks. It's one long grind to the end.

Sorry for thinking you meant mechanics. I never would have thought in a million years that anyone would say that there's more to do in Giants than in ToH. I personally find the Giants to be sort of one-dimensional, the dungeons are sort of boring - rooting through giant laundry looking for treasure, fighting caves full of ice pets, etc. Whatever the giant's motivation is outside of smash and grab pretty much escapes me. Other than the secret temples, there's not much in the way of points of interest IIRC.

ToH, on the otherhand, is full of murals and moving bits and pieces. And coincidentally, the last time I ran it the PCs got into a conversation with the efreeti that's trapped in there before they decided to leave - though that might be the only roleplaying. Also, it's not hard to grant saving throws or change mechanics in places where it needs it, so I've never seen a party die the same way twice in it.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Yes because Eberron is so awsome I bet you can't wait for the next source book where PC robots can take feats to become Transformers. yay! /vomit

That's actually a construct template from Advanced Bestiary.

 

[Voadam]

Yes because Eberron is so awsome I bet you can't wait for the next source book where PC robots can take feats to become Transformers. yay! /vomit

Don't need Eberron for that. Mechamorphosis

 

[Jedi_Solo]

<continue hijack>

Yes because Eberron is so awsome I bet you can't wait for the next source book where PC robots can take feats to become Transformers. yay! /vomit

*shrug* I'd be surprised if there were NOT published cases of (the equivalent of, at least) golems that can Polymorph Self before 3.x. That's all it would take to have a "robot in disguise".

</hijack>

The giants and drow series were both much better, not to mention things like Tomb of Horrors.

Now I'm wondering if they have places aspects of each in the module, and I'm wondering how that would work. The giants series is mostly a hack-and-slash and the Tomb of Horrors is mostly a breathe-and-die.

There is a beutiful DOrk Tower comics that mirrors my views of the Tomb but I can't track it down. Igor (I think) is having a conversation with the store owner while you hear a DM off panel going "You touch that? You die. You looked at that? You die. You all made new characters? They die too."

I wouldn't have a problem going through the tomb as a one-shot if I knew I was going through the tomb. But I prefer splitting orc skulls (or giant skulls as the case may be) to that. To be honest, my prefered game has plenty of combat but plenty of interaction. Just not the type of interaction that is "you die because you were only 99.9% accurate to what the designed wanted."

 

[Stormborn]

Well after talking with a source that has the book, I'm considering revising my opinion on using this book.

Care to elaborate any?

[And why do we have to periodically have Eberron bashing/gushing in random unrelated threads?]