Wonderful, broken Simulacrum

[Jack Simth]

[/QUOTE]

OK, let's go over exactly what is based on HD, what is based on level, and what is unclear:

Size: The SRD is unclear, but it doesn't matter because Simulacrum clearly states that the duplicate is physically identical to the original, so same size

No, it doesn't; it states that it appears to be phisically identical. The whole thing:

Simulacrum

Illusion (Shadow)

Level: Sor/Wiz 7 Components: V, S, M, XP Casting Time: 12 hours Range: 0 ft. Effect: One duplicate creature Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD). You can’t create a simulacrum of a creature whose Hit Dice or levels exceed twice your caster level. You must make a Disguise check when you cast the spell to determine how good the likeness is. A creature familiar with the original might detect the ruse with a successful Spot check (opposed by the caster’s Disguise check) or a DC 20 Sense Motive check.

At all times the simulacrum remains under your absolute command. No special telepathic link exists, so command must be exercised in some other manner. A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities. If reduced to 0 hit points or otherwise destroyed, it reverts to snow and melts instantly into nothingness. A complex process requiring at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum.

Material Component: The spell is cast over the rough snow or ice form, and some piece of the creature to be duplicated (hair, nail, or the like) must be placed inside the snow or ice. Additionally, the spell requires powdered ruby worth 100 gp per HD of the simulacrum to be created.

XP Cost: 100 XP per HD of the simulacrum to be created (minimum 1,000 XP).

It's not physically identicle, it just appears to be so; tell me, if I find a version of disguise self that makes me "appear" to be a size category larger, does that mean I also get the bonuses and penalties associated with another size?
The releavent ability descriptions is a single sentence, highlight by me for this particular point:

It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD).

Note the word "appears" nowhere does it say that it is physically identicle. For that matter, it even specifies the likeness is always off to some degree (a little further down, but still in the full spell description, above) when it states that you need to make a Disguise roll to see how good the likeness is.

Stats: Same as size

It does

Normal Attack Types (Tail Whip, Crush, etc) and their damage: These are based on Size, although the escape DC for Crush is based on HD

The attacks are only partially based on size - they are also based on other features of the dragon (it's base stats and it's BAB, to name two) that have been pre-calculated into the listings. A sim is specifically listed as being only partially real; if I cast a Silent Image of a fighter swinging a sword, and the illusionary sword hits a target, does the target take damage? No? Then should a partially real duplicate deal full damage?

BAB: This is clearly based on hit dice

Agreed.

Saves: These are clearly based on hit dice

No, they are based on Hit Dice, Ability Scores, and specific racial modifiers, probably a few other things I'm missing as well (size penalty to reflex, perhaps).

Hit Points: Pretty obvious, based on HD

Agreed.

Breath Weapon: The SRD states that the DC is definitely based on HD. The damage dice are unclear

The damage dice are listed as being based on age category - but does the base creature determine the age category or does the hit dice determine the age category? This is the crux of the specific disagreement on form. Again, my position is that the choice of the two is unclear. Specific responses to your specific examples are simply devil's-advocate demonstrations of that.

Frightful Presence: The SRD states that having the ability is based on age (Young Adult or higher), but DC is based on HD.

And again, crux of the distinction between our reactions - is age category based on the creature copied or the HD of the creature? Where is that stated?

Spells: Unclear, I would guess this is based on HD

I'd guess age category - but I'd also base age category on HD, so an Old making a Juvinile copy would get no spells.

SLAs: The SRD states that these are based on age category

Clearly - but is age category based on the copied creature directly or on the copied creature's HD? Again, the crux of the example disagreement.

DR: The SRD states that this is based on age category

Clearly - but is age category based on the copied creature directly or on the copied creature's HD? Again, the crux of the example disagreement.

Immunities: They all have these

SR: The SRD states that this is based on age category

Clearly - but is age category based on the copied creature directly or on the copied creature's HD? Again, the crux of the example disagreement.

Blindsense and Keen Senses: They all have these

Skills and Feats: Clearly based on HD

Agreed.

Edit: Oh and as for the statement "I don't know what SRD you're using." It wasn't meant to mean I don't know where to find the SRD. It was an assumption that you may have decided to use the 3.0 SRD or something and that is why you were paraphrasing it to me with incorrect information. Turns out that you just missed some of the facts, as you pointed out above, which is understandable considering how hard it is to actually use the SRD to build dragons.

Uh-huh. And the link included IN THE ONE YOU RESPONDED TO didn't indicate that?


Edit: Sorry, in the above, I made a slight grammer error repeatedly that could change the meaning of the phrase:

but is age category based on the copied creature directly or on the copied creature's HD

- The big question for the specific example: Does the Base creature's Age Category determine directly the Age Category of the Sim, or does the Sim's final HD determine the Sim's Age Category? The crux of the specific example argument - but where is this stated, either way?



Again, just to be clear - I'm not arguing specifics to say "my reaction to the specific mechanics is correct", I'm arguing them to point out that the SRD doesn't specify that level of the specific mechanics.

 

[Jack Simth]

I hope you can see that this last statement of yours is mistaken (or I guess it could be a lie, but I doubt you would do that intentionally without editing your post above to remove the evidence) and a case of extremely selective memory, since it didn't take much effort to prove that you did in fact say exactly what I said you did.

Show me where the SRD says that the Sim is the base with negative levels, or permanent energy drain, or equivalent,

Go look. It's been there the whole time, just not up at the front of the post you were looking at. Okay - so I did say negative levels/energy drain - but I also put the modifier on it towards the end of the post. Look again.

Edit: Check your cache, if you don't believe me. Might be in there. These posts might also keep a record of edits. One simple way to find out - does this post include an edited notice?

Edit 2: Nope, doesn't seem to.

Edit 3: But the one above does. So theoretically, if I went back after another post has been made, there *should* alway be an edit indicator.

Edit 4: And this one does too, now. Odd.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Uh-huh. And the link included IN THE ONE YOU RESPONDED TO didn't indicate that?

It would have if I had needed to use your link. I already had the SRD so I didn't. I chose to believe that it was possible that you were simply using a different system, rather than believe that you were just wrong.

As for saving throws also being based on stats and such, well duh. So are the save DCs, among other things. But they are based on HD rather than age category.

As for the "appears to be" business, you can determine exactly what is the same as the original by the use of the "but" clause. The but clause tells us that the HD (and the HD-based abilities) are halved. This indicates that everything else remains the same. Why? Because they aren't listed as being different, whereas Hit Dice are. It would be a waste of space to go through an inclusive list of the 50 things that are the same, so instead they just say what is not the same, the HD. For instance, Disguise Self, the example you used, specifically states that it does not provide abilities.

If you wanted to argue against this, you certainly could, but it would basically make you a nit-picking rules lawyer who was trying to spark up a controversy where there should be none. Honestly, what do you do when you have a Simu of a human Fighter? You give it the Fighter's stats. If you had any doubts of the rather clear intentions here, you would need only to remember casting Simulacrum from previous editions to know what they meant. That leaves you with only the word-twisting in an attempt to create conttroversy argument. And I will give you your point if that was actually what you were meaning to do here. There's plenty of fun ways to twist the definitions in D&D to create confusion, and you can do it here if you try.

Edit: By fighter's stats, I mean the six ability scores and size of medium

 

[Rystil Arden]

You said two things. One of them (we'll call it statement A) was the one that I said you said, exactly. Its still there. One of them (we'll call it statement B) was the thing you posted in your 4-edited post.

I attempted to clarify my position on the point you made in statement A. You claimed that you had never said statement A and that thus I was building a straw man argument. Later, you used the fact that you had said statement B to indicate that you hadn't said statement A. Unfortunately, you had said statement A.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I just had an insight: Your two arguments against me show why each other can't be right. The "appears" bit is proof that you cannot build the Simu from the bottom. Why not? Because then you don't know anything about it except it is an amorphous blob that appears to be the creature and has half its HD. You can't assign any abilities at all under your method except HP feats, skill ranks, and specials because the spell doesn't say it gets them. So it has no ability scores, no movement capacity, and no mind and it sits there on the floor drooling.

 

[Jack Simth]

In looking back over your statements, I think I may have found your problem. You need to look at the rules for making dragons, not the summary tables. Tables are nice tools for quick use, but they don't show cause and effect at all, and I'm surprised that that's what you were using to argue it. I can make a chart or table showing that higher ice cream sales correlates to higher crime rates (this is actually true because both are higher in the summer), but that does not mean that I can slash crime rates by forcing ice cream shoppes to sell less of their products. Similarly, you can make a table that shows the HD inceasing at the same time as the abilities are gained, but that doesn't mean that either one causes the other (In fact the yare both caused by a third factor, like the ice cream and the crimes).

Hate to break it to you, but that's not the crux of the disagreement. The crux for the specific example: Is the Age category of a sim of a particular type of dragon based on the original's Age Category or the final HD of the sim?
Where's it stated which is the case?
There's tables for the age category of the dragon - by how many years old it is. It has lots of info on abilites - based on the age category. Where's the table that detemines the age category of the dragon by it's Hit Dice? If anything, for the sim you make is 0 years old to start; as it can't advance in any way, it will always be that age for purposes of draconic abilities. So it's permanently a wyrmling. But that's completely rediculous.

I'm using the summery tables for the simple reason that they provide a reverse-lookup to go from HD to age category.

If A causes B by some exhaustive 1 to 1 function, and A causes C by some 1 to 1 function, then B and C are also related by some 1 to 1 function. Simple logic (I'm not putting the proof here - too cumbersome). If the specific functions are unknown, but you have tables of known correct values that correspond for specific values of A<->B and A<->C, and you have matching values of A in known translations of B and C, then you can match the corresponding values of B and C. Application of simple logic. Thus, with the situation above, if you have a known instance of C, a matching A for that C, and a matching B for that A, you also have a matching B for that C. Trivially. The only specifics of the Simacrula spell's result are it's HD, that it has abilities appropriet to a creature of that kind for that HD, and an appearence very similar to the base creature. HD we have for sure - I'm simply logically backtracking from C (HD, known for certain) to B (Other abilities, in question) through A (Age Category, correlates on tables to both abilities and HD for the specific type of dragon).

However, it's a spell - spells have non-logical results at times - the spell does not specify that it takes the physical abilities of the original - not in 3.5 SRD, anyway - nor does it specifically specify that the HD reduction on abilities applies to ALL abilities Bar none - but it does give a listing, and use et cetera, so it is a simple matter to read it that way.

Edit: Sorry, it doesn't use et cetera. Skip that small portion.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I just figured out what you missed in the spell description.

"Effect: One duplicate creature"

The effect tells you that the new creature is a complete duplicate except where otherwise noted in the spell.

And your edit is correct, it doesnt use et cetera. The listing of what is reduced is exhaustive

 

[Jack Simth]

I just had an insight: Your two arguments against me show why each other can't be right. The "appears" bit is proof that you cannot build the Simu from the bottom. Why not? Because then you don't know anything about it except it is an amorphous blob that appears to be the creature and has half its HD. You can't assign any abilities at all under your method except HP feats, skill ranks, and specials because the spell doesn't say it gets them. So it has no ability scores, no movement capacity, and no mind and it sits there on the floor drooling.

It specifies that it has the abilities of a creature of that type of that HD. Ability scores, basic description, most special abilities, et cetera, can be matched up to a creature of the type with the HD. After all, ability scores don't scale (much) with level or Hit Dice, and most creatures use the "standard" all-10's and 11's before the monster template (this is specified under improving monsters) I can get ability scores, movement capacity, and mind from those, as appropriet to the creature with that HD; it's a fairly trivial (and I suspect most would say reasonable) extension of the spell's description - After all, does Summon Monster I specify the stats of the critter, or does everyone normally just assume it's completley typical for it's kind (barring feats, and class abilities, or special circumstances that change them, of course)?


Is the age part of the type (and thus inherited from the original) or a function of the Hit Dice (especially as the tables specify the final ability scores for dragons of a given age category)? That's the crux of the argument on the specifics. My position is that it's not entirely clear. Show me where it is, and I'll concede the issue. For now, though, I'm going to bed. I have work in the morning.

 

[Jack Simth]

I just figured out what you missed in the spell description.

"Effect: One duplicate creature"

The effect tells you that the new creature is a complete duplicate except where otherwise noted in the spell.

And your edit is correct, it doesnt use et cetera. The listing of what is reduced is exhaustive

That's one reading of the meaning - of course, does "special abilities" cover age category? It very easily could. But I'm tired and am going to bed now.

 

[Rystil Arden]

It specifies that it has the abilities of a creature of that type of that HD.

Actually it does not. It specifies that it has the special abilities of a creature of the type and HD. In D&D, Ability scores are not included as a type of special ability. Even though it is not how Simulacrum works by the effect description, I'm curious: in your 10s example, if I copy a level 20 human paladin, does he have all 10s in his stats?

That aside, if all you need is proof that age category is not a function of hit dice, its easy enough. Let's say my dragon takes 5 Hit Dice in Hidecarved Dragon PrC. I don't gain any age categories, so no new DR or SR, but my breath weapon DCs go up (based on HD).

Edit: Age category is not a special ability. It is a category. It is like a template being applied on a dragon of the next lower category. It is this category that determines other features. Hit Dice does not determine age category, and Age Category does not determine Hit Dice per se, although each time you apply an extra age category, the dragon does gain 3 HD, in addition to other benefits. So if you simu the dragon, he loses the benefits of his new shiny Hit Dice, but he doesn't lose his very identity, or he wouldn't be a duplicate creature. What about the monsters in the MM3 that exist under separate entries on separate pages but are part of the lifecycle of the same creature (can't remember which ones at the moment). If I simu the big one, does the simu become one of the little guys? No. It stays as a "duplicate creature"