Word of Mearls: Official Player races will not get Oversized Weapons. Forked Thread

[WalterKovacs]

I actually remember the huge maul that hit me several times upside my head WAY more than a gore that only happens once per combat. We must remember things differently.

"Yeah that minotaur really smacked me hard with that oversized weapon of his."

"What are you talking about? That was a bugbear."

If something is a trait shared by multiple races ... especially ones that aren't really related ... it isn't exactly iconic.

 

[keterys]

PC Kobolds aren't cut from the same cloth as NPC kobolds, however. They probably have different upbringing and lifepaths. Perhaps living above ground has muted their darkvision?

I already made a similar suggestion.

Besides, when you look at kobolds, shifty-at-will is FAR more iconic to their identity as kobolds than the darkvision.

And? There are people who hate the 4e style of PC vs NPC separation because on an emotional level they need things to 'make sense' to them. If a PC kobold loses darkvision compared to an NPC kobold, it breaks things for them. It's not a game balance question, it just breaks the immersion or -something- for them.

I'm not one of those people, but I've witnessed enough of the complaints that no amount of balance reasoning is going to change it.

Now, on the more direct topic of minotaurs and bugbears with oversized weapons... they just shouldn't have gotten them in the first place, nor should other races. Poof, no balance problems with PCs, no disconnect for NPCs, and since they're monsters they can do whatever damage we want them to do anyways.

 

[Cadfan]

Shifty. It doesn't look like much, but in reality, its incredibly huge. Its like giving 3e style auto-tumble to a character, at will, except even better.

 

[avin]

This is an example of a 4E good design decision.

A 4E bad design decision is not including Modrons.

Or a Rogue Modron miniature.

What? Have I said this before?

 

[elecgraystone]

"Yeah that minotaur really smacked me hard with that oversized weapon of his."

"What are you talking about? That was a bugbear."

If something is a trait shared by multiple races ... especially ones that aren't really related ... it isn't exactly iconic.

So trace isn't iconic even though multiple races get it? Charging is more iconic? Was that a gnoll or a minotaur that charged? Lets look at teleporting once. Was it a Eladrin or a Shadar-kai? Many of the iconic traits aren't unique at all.

Shifty. It doesn't look like much, but in reality, its incredibly huge. Its like giving 3e style auto-tumble to a character, at will, except even better.

Shifty is awesome no question. But IMO shifty+trap sense-small looks pretty close to Lolthtouched and trance. I don't see the need to drop the Darkvision from only one. Just how powerful IS darkvision really? Unless the whole party has it or your a lone scout, how powerful is it? Not very.

 

[James McMurray]

Shifty

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Here's the main reason why Darkvision should be dropped: It leaves the other PC's in the dust.

One of our players decided to roll up a new character because he totally broke his Warlord (He didn't even use all of the point buy points for RP purposes, and did nothing but Commander's Strike...). So he came up with a Kobold Rogue character.

This worked out well at first, since the extra striker really added some damage dealing potential to our party. We're doing KotS right now, and during the above ground bits it was a lot of fun. Now that we're in the dungeons though, it's really boring. Every session is "Well, I have Darkvision, so I'm just going to scout ahead for the next 10 rounds until I find some monsters. Then I'll come back to where you've been waiting with your thumbs up your butt so you can save me from getting filleted by the 8 zombies following me."

Without Darkvision though he wouldn't have that sort of massive advantage over the rest of us, and we could actually move around as a party. Sure, it might take away some of the flavor of the Kobolds, but it makes for a better group dynamic.

(I can't speak about Drow though, since we aren't using any in our campaign. Plus, aren't they Forgotten Realms only now? I think there's a lot more going on with the FR stuff that might balance it's inclusion a bit more.)

 

[elecgraystone]

"Well, I have Darkvision, so I'm just going to scout ahead for the next 10 rounds until I find some monsters. Then I'll come back to where you've been waiting with your thumbs up your butt so you can save me from getting filleted by the 8 zombies following me."

So let him get filleted if he keeps scouting on his own. If your party is waiting with "thumbs up your butt" it's not darkvisions fault.

Without Darkvision though he wouldn't have that sort of massive advantage over the rest of us, and we could actually move around as a party. Sure, it might take away some of the flavor of the Kobolds, but it makes for a better group dynamic.

What you missed is he doesn't have an advantage over the MONSTERS. He get attacked and trapped by them and how is the party going to find him in time? Look for the light from his torch? Group dynamic keeps people alive and people like the scouting kobold are asking to not make it out of the adventure alive. It's the same thing as a halfling rogue always scouting ahead above ground. It's the scouting that's the problem, not the darkvision. If you took it away would the scouting stop if you weren't in a dungeon?

(I can't speak about Drow though, since we aren't using any in our campaign. Plus, aren't they Forgotten Realms only now? I think there's a lot more going on with the FR stuff that might balance it's inclusion a bit more.)

Drow is in the same book with the kobold, the MM and it had Darkvision there.

Shifty

Awesome argument. Thanks for sharing.

The less melee the character does, the less useful this power is. Take a ranger. (not a bad pick with +2 dex and +2 con.) He has to use a shortbow and his main uber-awesome power helps him very little since he'll be at range most times. He'd get more mileage out of an encounter power like lothtouched.

Let's look at a Kobold warlock (+2 con, makes for a good one.). Well you're going to be cursing, so your minor action is used up so when is shifty that useful? I don't see it any more useful that Lothtouched.

Only the rogue gets a big boost from shifting 2 before attacking but is this enough of a boost to take away Darkvision. Not for me.

 

[James McMurray]

This worked out well at first, since the extra striker really added some damage dealing potential to our party. We're doing KotS right now, and during the above ground bits it was a lot of fun. Now that we're in the dungeons though, it's really boring. Every session is "Well, I have Darkvision, so I'm just going to scout ahead for the next 10 rounds until I find some monsters. Then I'll come back to where you've been waiting with your thumbs up your butt so you can save me from getting filleted by the 8 zombies following me."

Without Darkvision though he wouldn't have that sort of massive advantage over the rest of us, and we could actually move around as a party. Sure, it might take away some of the flavor of the Kobolds, but it makes for a better group dynamic.

His first run-in with a controller and or some skirmishers will cure him of that, because he'll be dead. Sneaking off on your own is a bad idea in a system where 1/5 of the monsters can hamper your movement or ignore terrain, and another 1/5 are faster than you.

(I can't speak about Drow though, since we aren't using any in our campaign. Plus, aren't they Forgotten Realms only now? I think there's a lot more going on with the FR stuff that might balance it's inclusion a bit more.)

It's the opposite. The goal this time around is apparently to make everything usable with the core. So if you want to adventure in FR you can, but if you just want to add Swordmages to your Eberron game that'll work too.

 

[King-Panda]

I hate to be that guy who says "We're going off topic!" and then just has to add in his last two bits... but I'm going to anyways.

For one, at least for me, Kobolds' shifty quality is not a kobold-defining idea; Kobolds have been around a lot longer than 4th edition, which is when "shifty" came into play. When I think Kobold, I think trap-making, dragon-worshiping, quick-to-retreat guerrilla warfare monsters. Not shifty.

My main problem about the Darkvision balancing is that it creates a slippery slope. Saying that every kobold who takes up arms, leaves his cave, and goes adventuring (ergo, a PC) loses a basic ability of their physiology makes no sense at all, and that ruins any sense of immersion (thanks Keterys) I have invested in the game. Where the slippery slope comes into play is this; why stop there? Minotaur PCs have to be medium, and Minotaur NPC's are large! Every race must have the same number of bonuses, because if they didn't, it wouldn't be fair! Am I making sense?

The only major thing that bothers me about 4th edition is the homogeny. Even just back in 3.5, dwarves had DV and Elves had LLV. Human PC's didn't complain, and if they did, tough for them. Having everyone be super balanced wasn't that necessary in a cooperative game. We shouldn't base our rules off of the chance that anything we might do could make a loophole for power-hungry gamers.