Working on a class to match a character concept

[Gloombunny]

Archivist is a lot like cloistered cleric, only better. Dark knowledge is perfect for this concept. It's still kinda magic-oriented, and you might not like the religious angle, but I think it's about as good as you're going to get.

Actually, the religious fluff could probably just be ignored, if you're willing to overlook the oddity of the spell selection for a non-divine character. And if you really want to do this without much magic, starting with the archivist and modifying it to expand dark knowledge in exchange for reduced spellcasting is probably your best bet.

 

[MissingDividends]

Wow. Thanks for all the replies! I'll respond chronologically.

You might get more suggestions with a little more background - is this a fantasy campaign, d20 modern, a horror setting? Using straight WOTC rules or a variant?

Sorry, that completely slipped my mind. It's pretty much straight WOTC D&D (3rd Ed.) and the DM allows pretty much anything from a reputable source or that is well thought out and supported.

Other than that, there have been a variety of class evaluation and/or design systems floating around.

If you just want to customize, I'd suggest going with a point-buy system. Mutants and Masterminds works well for superheroes, but isn't compatible with much else. BESM works well for anime characters, but is only semi-compatible with most other systems. Eclipse: The Codex Persona is compatible with 3.0, 3.5, Modern, and a lot of other systems, but its a fairly hefty chunk of material, rather than a simple class. On the other hand, you can pick it up as Shareware at RPGNow, so it doesn't cost anything. The BESM system reference document used to be available, but I've no idea where you'd get it now. Mutants and Masterminds, well I don't know if its SRD was ever released independently of the main book.

I'll take a look at some of those.

Well, how about Wizard [Diviner] going to Loremaster. . .? I know it's probably not it, but it sprung to mind straight away.

Thanks. Loremaster completely slipped my mind! I'll definitely consider using it (either directly or with a few modifications).

There are a number of non-musical Bard-like classes out there, if that's more your thing (you mentioned that class, and the music problem.)

Good suggestion, I believe someone else posted a link to the SRD Variant Classes page that listed a few.

What are they going to bring to the party, in terms of effectiveness in combat and dealing with other typical in-game problems? The concept sounds cool, but the nitty gritty, what's the go there?

Not at all concerned. I'm sure the DM will fit it in somewhere.
Looking at it, it seems like high knowledge/diplomacy skills for research and dealing with people (upper ranking guards, politicians/nobles), some amount of knowledge with engineering/architecture for construction purposes, a grasp on "first aid", possibly some low level spells depending on which class route I go, etc.

I have the BESM SRD on my computer somwehere....<does a quick search>

Ah, found it.

Thanks!

There's the Bardic Sage variant from Unearthed Arcana (but is fully reprinted in the SRD here:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantBardicSage

Thanks, certainly looks more like what I had in mind than the typical Bard.

It replaces the bard's spellcasting stat, from Cha to Int, gives you a few bonus Divination spells both available and known, Good Will saves instead of Fort/Ref, and a +2 bonus to Bardic Knowledge (though your Music is a little less potent). And remember, Bardic Music doesn't have to be singing, it can be based off of any Perform skill. So Perform (Oratory) would fit perfectly for the droning professor type (Fascinate) or just someone with good advice (Inspire Competence and Courage).

Yeah, I had considered oratory-based bardic music, but wasn't sure it was the route I wanted to go, although I hadn't thought about it quite that way.

A 1st level spell called Joyful Noise from the Book of Exalted Deeds (I believe variants of it are found elsewhere, though) gives your Inspire Courage an extra +1 in exchange for a measly 1st level spell, its definitely worth it if you're buffing up your companions.

Hmm.. I checked my copy of the Book of Exalted Deeds and didn't see it. Might it be from somewhere else?

If you're looking for a more Indiana Jones type, the Factotum is another class from the Dungeonscape handbook that's an Int-based "Jack of All Trades" kindof class. It's a little underpowered which is why I didn't suggest it at first, but it's sure interesting.

Not really what I was looking for, but it might make a nice character if this one dies .

The Archivist from Heroes of Horror might also be good, it's kind of a wizardly divine spellcaster-they study tomes of divine knowledge/the nature of divinity to gain their spellcasting ability, if it makes any sense. They're a multiple stat dependent class, based around Int and Wis, d6 HD and poor BAB, no turning but they have in exchange an ability called Dark Knowledge which affects outsiders, aberrations, undead (and others if you get a feat). It basically allows you to grant either a bonus to attack, AC, saves or similar, along with a little snippet of information (Bardic Lore with a kick). I hear they're a blast to play, especially in a Lovcraftian type way

Again, not quite what I was looking for, but might make for a cool future character.

It's really difficult to design a character that can actually contribute without doing a direct physical action, one method of reaching this is to create a build that works off of buffing your companions. Bard has a lot of useful spells but it seems like if you're not taking advantage of the Rogue-ish BAB it has you're not using the class to its full potential. If you can convince your DM, maybe letting you play an Int- instead of Cha- based Marshal (Miniature's Handbook) and multiclass with one of the options above to help the party even more (Marshal is an aura based class if you haven't seen it before, you can give your allies little benefits like +X damage to all attacks while flanking or +X bonus to Trip or Disarm attempts.

Yeah, buffs seem like they're the way to go.

Come to think of it though, a well-made Rogue with a focus on magic items could even work if you want an absent-minded guy who pulls out the right trinket at the right time to help. And Sneak Attack might fit the character if you take it as discerning vital spots in an intelligent manner.

Another one I considered, but it just wouldn't work until the higher levels.

Hope that helps!

Certainly does!

From your description, one of the first thoughts I had was Bard...but they do have their obvious quirks.

However, have you considered "Cleric"?

1) Your PC is "grandfatherly"- when you say that, I hear "wise"- a clerical trait.

2) If the cleric takes the Knowledge domain, he'll have all Knowledge skills as class skills...

3) He can qualify for Loremaster just as easily as a specialist mage

4) He can wear armor.

Another one I thought about, but dismissed, although I didn't think about Loremaster.

You might also check out the Arcana Unearthed/Arcana Evolved Akashik- its something between bard & rogue, and lends itself nicely to the scholar role.

I'm not familiar with it. I'll have to look it up next time I have access to the book.

Cloistered Cleric, into Loremaster. A lot more skill points, and still light armor, same BAB as wizard would be though. Doesn't the cloistered cleric get the Knowledge Domain automatically?

I hadn't thought of this, although it looks like a very reasonable option.

Factotum from Dungeonscape might work.

Another one I'll have to look up.

Archivist from Heroes of Horror might do well... a scholarly type but focused on divine/planar/occult/undead types.

Already mentioned by Sollir Furryfoot .

Archivist is a lot like cloistered cleric, only better. Dark knowledge is perfect for this concept. It's still kinda magic-oriented, and you might not like the religious angle, but I think it's about as good as you're going to get.

Actually, the religious fluff could probably just be ignored, if you're willing to overlook the oddity of the spell selection for a non-divine character. And if you really want to do this without much magic, starting with the archivist and modifying it to expand dark knowledge in exchange for reduced spellcasting is probably your best bet.

Hmm.. I actually think I like the looks of the cloistered cleric for this character better than the Archivist, but I'm not positive.


So it looks like I have Bardic Sage, Cloistered Cleric, and Archivist to choose from for the base class and Loremaster as a possible prestige class.

At this point, since I'd like to keep the religious aspect out of it, I think I'll probably be going Bardic Sage (Focused on oratory) and Loremaster, which leads me to my next question: How do bardic knowledge and Lore work? Does the character roll twice (once for BK and once for Lore), or do they stack?

Thanks again for all the input!
--MissingDividends

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

There is another class, I believe its called the Savant, from DCv1. It combines features of several classes, and could easily simulate someone with a broad academic background. A dabbler, if you will.

 

[Celebrim]

Any class with access to one or more knowledge skills as class skills.

That reply is half tongue in cheek, but only half. I find it strange that you need a class to play an older, absent-minded, lorewise character. You can be a fighter who is an older, absent-minded, lorewise, shrewd character and I'm sure that you can think of or find examples of grand-fatherly warrior mentors in literature - even ones that first try to solve problems with thier wits rather than thier martial prowess.

A character's class is about what he does, not about who he is. It is not meant to be a constraint on personality, appearance, age, or any other personal attribute. If it becomes that, you end up with a steady stream of cloned sterotypes, and that's boring.

Even alignment is not as severe of a constraint on personality as you seem to be taking class to be. Even a lawful good character can be short-tempered, or amorous, or greedy, or possess any number of other character flaws, and a chaotic evil person can have various virtues. They differ in how they express these characteristics, and most importantly in how they react under pressure (or the lack of it).

As for your class, speaking as a DM, be careful not to pigeon yourself too much in the role of 'the skill guy' or 'the expert'. Most D&D games are eventually in some form about combat, and D&D skills have for the most part little combat impact. If you play a class with little magical ability, little combat skill, and little ability to impact combat you are putting I think a rather unfair burden on your DM and your fellow players to pick up your slack. Whatever you choose, make sure you discuss the potential pitfalls of your character concept with your DM. If he's going to run a problem solving/diplomacy/detective style game (not typical for the game system, but I've seen it done), then you'll be fine. (There is a reason why your sort of character concept is more often seen in Call of Cthulu games, and would be easier to pull of in D20 modern.) If he's thinking more dungeon crawls, either straight up or in disguise, playing a non-magical, non-combat skill character is going to adversely affect play.

So think about whether you can play the same character with a slightly different skill set.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Any class with access to one or more knowledge skills as class skills.

Which, BTW, includes Clerics with the Knowledge domain.

Just sayin'.

 

[Gloombunny]

Any class with access to one or more knowledge skills as class skills.

That reply is half tongue in cheek, but only half. I find it strange that you need a class to play an older, absent-minded, lorewise character. You can be a fighter who is an older, absent-minded, lorewise, shrewd character and I'm sure that you can think of or find examples of grand-fatherly warrior mentors in literature - even ones that first try to solve problems with thier wits rather than thier martial prowess.

A character's class is about what he does, not about who he is. It is not meant to be a constraint on personality, appearance, age, or any other personal attribute. If it becomes that, you end up with a steady stream of cloned sterotypes, and that's boring.

Even alignment is not as severe of a constraint on personality as you seem to be taking class to be. Even a lawful good character can be short-tempered, or amorous, or greedy, or possess any number of other character flaws, and a chaotic evil person can have various virtues. They differ in how they express these characteristics, and most importantly in how they react under pressure (or the lack of it).

I think you're misunderstanding his goals. He's not avoiding classes like fighter or wizard because he sees them as "not knowledge-guy enough", he's avoiding them because his concept does not include being a skilled swordsman or a powerful mage. He specifically wants to play someone who is good at knowing stuff and not good at those things. At least, that's the impression I got.

As for your class, speaking as a DM, be careful not to pigeon yourself too much in the role of 'the skill guy' or 'the expert'. Most D&D games are eventually in some form about combat, and D&D skills have for the most part little combat impact. If you play a class with little magical ability, little combat skill, and little ability to impact combat you are putting I think a rather unfair burden on your DM and your fellow players to pick up your slack. Whatever you choose, make sure you discuss the potential pitfalls of your character concept with your DM. If he's going to run a problem solving/diplomacy/detective style game (not typical for the game system, but I've seen it done), then you'll be fine. (There is a reason why your sort of character concept is more often seen in Call of Cthulu games, and would be easier to pull of in D20 modern.) If he's thinking more dungeon crawls, either straight up or in disguise, playing a non-magical, non-combat skill character is going to adversely affect play.

So think about whether you can play the same character with a slightly different skill set.

This is why I recommended archivist. Dark knowledge is exactly the thing to let a character whose shtick is Knowledge skills contribute in combat.

 

[Celebrim]

I think you're misunderstanding his goals. He's not avoiding classes like fighter or wizard because he sees them as "not knowledge-guy enough", he's avoiding them because his concept does not include being a skilled swordsman or a powerful mage. He specifically wants to play someone who is good at knowing stuff and not good at those things. At least, that's the impression I got.

I understand his goals just fine. He's trying to make his character a really neat NPC. Ten or twelve years ago I'd be thumbing through books trying to help him out. Since then, I've realized that creating a PC like this is a 'narrator mindset' and not a 'protagonist mindset'.

There are very few campaigns played with the D&D system where you can get by with just 'knowing stuff' and NOT being good at slinging spells or swinging swords. It's a perfectly fine character to be the charming slightly bumbling scholar who provides the exposition to the protagonist, it's just not necessarily a perfectly good protagonist in an adventure tale. If you want to play a scholar as a PC, you need to be playing a 'Indiana Jones', 'Sherlock Holmes', 'Doc Savage', 'Bruce Wayne' type character who is a scholar and also has mastery of martial arts and is handy with a pistol when he needs it. (In that vein, the core class most suited is probably Monk, just drop the unneeded flavor and background.)

 

[javcs]

Joyful (joyous?) noise was in the 3.0e supplement Song and Silence.

I believe that it was updated in either Complete Adventurer or the Spell Compendium.

As for a class ... I don't really have a suggestion that hasn't been mentioned already. Although, a knowledge skills maxed out character with UMD and a bag of items might be somewhat like what you're going for ... Artificer maybe?

If you're assembling a new class ... I would suggest poor BAB; poor fort and reflex saves, good will save; 6 or 8 skillpoints/level; Craft(traps), Craft (mechanical), {or Craft(all)} Decipher Script, Disable Device, Forgery, Knowledge(all), Open Lock(?), Search, Spot, Use Magic Device; d6 Hit Die ... good class features, trapfinding, Lore (ala bardic lore and the Loremaster ability), fast trap-making, some sort of create trap ability (that scales with level), possibly borrow the dark knowledge ability or mechanics from the archivist and tweak them.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

If this guy is indeed an NPC, you could go a slightly different route...multiclass, multiclass, multiclass.

Find one or more base classes, then load up on PrCls like Loremaster, etc., expanding the PC's breadth and possibly depth of knowledge, but pretty much torching his fighting or even overall adventuring capability.

Voila! Grampa Hodge McPodge is a member of the Elks, the Rotary Club, a Veteran's lodge, is a lay minister in his church, etc.- and has pals all over the place, in all strata of society, and knowledge about the great wide world...but you wouldn't want to depend on him in a firefight.