Brasswatchman
First Post
As long as we're on the subject - when you all run campaigns, have you ever tried to start out with a particular story in mind? A plot that runs through the sessions? - Or do you prefer to let a story evolve as you go along?
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World Building - Suggestions Please (be kind lol)
- Thread starter Kristivas
- Start date
Eloi
First Post
There will always be plot threads running through anything the characters do. While they are on the main quest (recovery of a potent magic item), they could be mistaken for freelancers and hired by the BBEG to "go here and do this one thing for me, I need XXXX to complete my ritual". If they actually manage to hold it together and not bust out laughing (or something else that lets the cat out of the bag), then they really have the BBEG over a barrel when they come back with the one ingredient which is critical to obtaining the thing he really, really wants, and want payment. You know, something simple, like (potent magic item) once he's done with his ritual. 
There will be times when it will be possible to do a kindness to/for a creature that isn't expecting any help, and earn rewards that can beggar the imagination for doing so. Gor'tok the Giant may have been blinded with red-hot irons and had his wrists nailed together behind his back.. if you happen to hear his agonized wails when it is your turn on watch, and then offer him kindness, maybe even help nurse him back to health, you have such a great plot device walking around, the mind reels just thinking about it. "Okay, you fail your save, and you're Held. The Illithid cackles, and moves in for some brain sherbert. Now, that was on 13.. on 12, the building gives a terrible squealing groan. The roof is now being lifted off.. and the face of a Colossal Giant peers in. It's Gor'tok! "My Friend!" Gor'tok is displeased with the Illithid. Let's see what Gor'tok does.. (rolls).."
There may be a reason why all the characters have been running into is low HD creatures - perhaps a BBEG is building a castle, and has swept up all the high HD types into a labor gang. Perhaps a Dragon is testing a new Air-to-Surface spell, and needs targets of a certain.. thickness.. to gauge the results properly. Perhaps the entire extended warband is visiting an evil high priest for their annual checkup. Maybe all 14 high-HD creatures in this area are currently trapped in the limbo of a Mirror of Life Trapping that's on the inside of the locket that the Monk wears because she likes the look of, and never got around to Detecting Magic on.
The threads of destiny run through the actions of your characters, and breathe life into the tapestry of adventure that they create. Every Elder God they can prevent the summoning of, every orphanage unburnt, are events that support and promote the weal and wellbeing of the civilization they live in.
If little Timmy is in the well, somebody's got to get him out. Try to get there before the Succubi with a Wand of Enlarge does. Loss of innocence is a Bad Thing. You don't want to run into Dark Timmy later..
There will be times when it will be possible to do a kindness to/for a creature that isn't expecting any help, and earn rewards that can beggar the imagination for doing so. Gor'tok the Giant may have been blinded with red-hot irons and had his wrists nailed together behind his back.. if you happen to hear his agonized wails when it is your turn on watch, and then offer him kindness, maybe even help nurse him back to health, you have such a great plot device walking around, the mind reels just thinking about it. "Okay, you fail your save, and you're Held. The Illithid cackles, and moves in for some brain sherbert. Now, that was on 13.. on 12, the building gives a terrible squealing groan. The roof is now being lifted off.. and the face of a Colossal Giant peers in. It's Gor'tok! "My Friend!" Gor'tok is displeased with the Illithid. Let's see what Gor'tok does.. (rolls).."
There may be a reason why all the characters have been running into is low HD creatures - perhaps a BBEG is building a castle, and has swept up all the high HD types into a labor gang. Perhaps a Dragon is testing a new Air-to-Surface spell, and needs targets of a certain.. thickness.. to gauge the results properly. Perhaps the entire extended warband is visiting an evil high priest for their annual checkup. Maybe all 14 high-HD creatures in this area are currently trapped in the limbo of a Mirror of Life Trapping that's on the inside of the locket that the Monk wears because she likes the look of, and never got around to Detecting Magic on.
The threads of destiny run through the actions of your characters, and breathe life into the tapestry of adventure that they create. Every Elder God they can prevent the summoning of, every orphanage unburnt, are events that support and promote the weal and wellbeing of the civilization they live in.
If little Timmy is in the well, somebody's got to get him out. Try to get there before the Succubi with a Wand of Enlarge does. Loss of innocence is a Bad Thing. You don't want to run into Dark Timmy later..
Nyaricus
First Post
You know, i have many things that influence me for gaming. Probably the most relevant one to this discussion of "particular stories" is GTA (Grand Theft Auto). Love it or hate it (I love 'em all), they have revolutionalised many aspects of gameplay.Brasswatchman said:
Basically, there is a main storyline that you must go through to "beat" the game. Within this storyline there are quite a few side quests which you can do along the way, all of which will introduce you to something new, or just give new spin on an old favourite. Finally, you can just screw around and kill a bunch of crap and make some cash.
So, for D&D, this is the sort of outline i try to DM by. There will eventually be an end to the campaign, but i try to leave it open so that it could, theoretically be ressurected at any time (although we would have almost definitively moved on). Along the way, we can do a bunch of other missions and such, or just have a bunch of fun and kill some orcs/undead/red dragons.
I would never try to tie my players to the core mission; infact, it could change, depending on what happens in-game. The fact is though if you try to bind your players to something, they will rebel (unless its an in-game issue, such as "if you don't get X for me, I will kill all of your families," says a pit fiend). But of say, you are FORCING your players to take an evil ring to a volcano to be detroyed, and have to constantly say out-of-game that "guys, just go with it, its the whole point of the campaign to do this" then you have lost your players and need to touch base and see if what you are doing as a DM is satisfactory.
Hope those examples and such help you decide; its nice to have an underlying theme and storyline - any good novel/movie has one. You job as DM is to try to impliment what works with your players style, and to cut out what doesn't. Maybe they like kick-in-the-dorr style and maybe they like high-intrigue-skillzy gaming. Talk to them, they are the other side of game.
Last edited:
Kristivas
First Post
Haven't done any updating for awhile, due to my World of Warcraft addiction, but something interesting happened to me the other day when my cable was out.
I got out some graph paper (and no, I cannot draw well to save my own soul) and started messing around. I did (a first) an outline of a town square, then filled it in more and more. Then, I started sticking objects there.. a well, some carts, ect. After that, some NPCs (my group loves my NPC names -sarcasm- Marton Ambertos, Gregoth Steelwhistle, ect) that just shoot into my head. Now, on the piece of graph paper, it all looked like well-placed boxes and other such shapes (since my 5 year old can draw better than I can) to represent people and things, but when I got out some paper and wrote the description of this town square, the entire place just came together for me. After about 6 pages, I have a fully formed town with notable NPCs, some side-quests, and a general flavor to this little town who's never been raided by orcs or threatened by a dragon or faced any other such cataclysm. (A hill giant did try to make them pay him tribute once, but the current town mayor outsmarted it when he was seven years old and managed to run it off without any casualties *or so he tells it*)
So, the first fully-developed place for my campaign setting is formed. Crayden Falls will be to my setting what Solace was to Dragonlance (not that I'd compare my stuff to DL *bows before Tracy Hickman's might)!
I got out some graph paper (and no, I cannot draw well to save my own soul) and started messing around. I did (a first) an outline of a town square, then filled it in more and more. Then, I started sticking objects there.. a well, some carts, ect. After that, some NPCs (my group loves my NPC names -sarcasm- Marton Ambertos, Gregoth Steelwhistle, ect) that just shoot into my head. Now, on the piece of graph paper, it all looked like well-placed boxes and other such shapes (since my 5 year old can draw better than I can) to represent people and things, but when I got out some paper and wrote the description of this town square, the entire place just came together for me. After about 6 pages, I have a fully formed town with notable NPCs, some side-quests, and a general flavor to this little town who's never been raided by orcs or threatened by a dragon or faced any other such cataclysm. (A hill giant did try to make them pay him tribute once, but the current town mayor outsmarted it when he was seven years old and managed to run it off without any casualties *or so he tells it*)
So, the first fully-developed place for my campaign setting is formed. Crayden Falls will be to my setting what Solace was to Dragonlance (not that I'd compare my stuff to DL *bows before Tracy Hickman's might)!
Kristivas
First Post
Brasswatchman said:
When I write a campaign, I start with 1 central theme that happens if the PCs choose to get involved or not. Here's an example:
BBEG is going to open a gateway to the Abyss and find a way to restore a dead (and very evil/sadistic/horrid/whatever) god to life, then unleash it on the world.
Then, after reading the PCs background, I find 1 or 2 to tie to the story in some 'small' way, as followed.
Mike the Paladin's Uncle's wife's Dad is a guy that used to work for the BBEG that escaped.
Then, we start playing. If the PCs take the bait that I give them and decide to play the adventure(s) and whatnot, then good. If they totally ignore it and worry about killing dragons and getting loot and saving princesses, also good. However, that BBEG is still working on his fiendish plot. Without the PCs meddling in his plans, things are coming along easier for him. Therefore, the PCs start to see signs of such, for example:
More demons in the world, since the BBEG is opening doorways to the Abyss.
If they still don't want to work on the problem, then it's still ok. I'll keep running missions and adventures and whatnot.. til eventually, a once-dead God is reborn and a curse upon the world. Now, the party either has to work thrice as hard.. or pretty much retire their characters who either die in a few years or submit to slavery in the name of the horrid god.....
Not to say all of my campaign plots are that deep, but my friends and I are huge Final Fantasy fans. We like to see quests start out small and then tie together into a long (and don;t forget world-saving!) campaign.
Spatzimaus
First Post
My only suggestion for homebrews is simple: "Let someone else do it." No, I don't mean pitch the whole thing. What I mean is, get the players to do some of the work. Player wants to be a Paladin? Have him design his god, church, and so on. One player wants to be an Elf? Have him do the gruntwork on their culture, history, etc. You should still be involved in the process, if only to maintain intenal consistency, but you shouldn't even attempt to design it all yourself. There's a good reason for this, too; when one person designs the entire setup, there's a certain... "skewing" of things towards his interests, his background. If you like Dwarves and hate Elves, you're naturally going to neglect developing the Elvish civilization. When half a dozen people design something as a team, you get a diversity that more accurately reflects real life.
As an extreme example of this, my last campaign had three DMs who rotated duties so that each of us could also play. I had designed the framework of the world, and so I kept the "bible" for the team. But each person added their own bits and pieces when they ran a game, and any really major changes to the world (adding a continent, wiping out an entire race, etc.) required the three of us to agree.
As an extreme example of this, my last campaign had three DMs who rotated duties so that each of us could also play. I had designed the framework of the world, and so I kept the "bible" for the team. But each person added their own bits and pieces when they ran a game, and any really major changes to the world (adding a continent, wiping out an entire race, etc.) required the three of us to agree.
Thia Halmades
First Post
Wow. This is a topic near & dear to my heart, but I'll try to avoid waxing nostalgic too much in this thread. A lot of what's been said already by peers I regularly see and respect, such as Spatzimaus and Nyaricus is very good. So I'll just add my wood to the fire as I sit down and regale you with where 21 years of world building has gotten me.
Yeah, serious. Started young, never quit. So, question one: is it worth it? Dude, it's worth exactly how much you decide it is. You've heard garbage in, garbage out? The same principal applies. If you invest your time, passion and effort into defining, refining, developing and building your world, it will become an extension of your psyche. It will take on a life of its own inside your mind, and you'll be able to spin, change, move and understand the ebb & flow of it without breaking out of it.
Rome wasn't built in a day. TRUE DAT. Getting to that point takes years. For me, it's much simpler because I have a series of ideas I continually refine and invest in a new place (such as my current HB campaign setting). I have stacks of rules and axioms I run my games by which keep everyone on the page I want them to be on in order to tell the story successfully.
Nyaricus brings up a good comparison with the GTA series; I have a Ravenloft campaign which runs under a similar 'sandbox' design; here's the world, here's some plotlines, pick what you like and run with it. Once you choose a direction, I can more effectively build a plot to go with it. This is an open-ended storyline; in this case I have an ultimate villain, and a group of heroes, but they're choosing the path they take to get from here to there. They choose which sites they see on the way, which battles they fight and what the world and its inhabitants mean to them.
You mention the "World-Saving Campaign" which ultimately is what a lot of D&D becomes because just hanging out in the local tavern doesn't get you real far; it goes against the grain of the game, which is about mighty heroes & horrendous villains (BoVD, how I do love thee). The demon plot you have is (in concept) similar to something I'm doing, except I have a much larger story built around the plot line; that's my fingerprint. The actual Story Arc.
- WHO is the villain? How did he come to this point? What need will he fulfill by executing his plan? Why is that plan important to him? When is it a good time for the PCs to encounter him? Personal favorite trick? Introduce the villain in the beginning of the campaign as an innocent NPC. Amusingly, I didn't do that this time and everyone suspects the Paladin at the head of their Order is the BBEG. Irony.
- WHY do the PCs care? When you mentioned you were content to let them sort of runamok and gain treasure, that's a measure sticking point for me. My games are the antithesis of the stereotypical D&D experience. Building the world is great; kingdoms, histories, etc. All great. The question all PCs ask (intentionally or not) is "Do I care?" You need to give them something and make it important to them. For example:
In the Ravenloft campaign, I let everyone do their own character gen, but with one caveat. In all of their character histories, they must include their Uncle Hammet, who raised them for varying periods of time in his ancestral mansion. This did two things instantly. First, it got everyone talking and defining -- on their own terms, with my help -- who Hammet was and what he meant to each of them, giving them common ground. Second, their characters were automatically invested in the concept of family. These are siblings, sometimes rivals, but all family. They aren't just "my adventuring party."
Then I killed Hammet. And that's how I started the game. I say this because during that process, they're asking questions. "Did we go on trips?" "Did we have servants, what are their names?" "Is there a major holiday? Birthday? What were those like?" All of those questions forced me to come up with answers, and build in more characters, more reasons, and solidify the construct of their reality, before going on and answering larger questions; Who killed Hammet? Why?
That's the reason I brought up this specific example; usually I start with a major story arc (a demonic invasion) and build it up into a fairly linear storyline. The PCs get choices as to where to go and what to do, but they keep their eyes on the prize. They're invested in the world and have bought into saving it as being a worthwhile and important thing. With the Ravenloft campaign, there's a much larger world with far less linearity. I started with a premise: Your uncle has been murdered.
No order to find the killer; they did that on their own. I gave them the mansion, X-Men style, to rebuild and improve as they saw fit. Or sell it. But since it contains their entire history as a family, they aren't getting rid of it. I made the basement a dungeon for a change of pace, and I put Uncle Hammet's Ghost in his study, along with how he was murdered and by what, if not whom. From there, the world was built expressly based on how the players approached it. They go to a tavern, I have one ready, with cast & crew standing by. They go through a cemetary, I have an encounter. When I wasn't ready for them to go somewhere, I told them so.
In this case, I've kept them in the loop. I'm doing what I call reactive writing, instead of proactive writing. Once they've settled on some basic plots I can expand the writing much more easily, because they're on a temporarily linear path. Then as they make decisions I can more easily anticipate where they'll go next.
These are the two basic methods I use to start developing my worlds. I call it a Ravenloft game, because that's the concrete I used to pour the foundation, but the rest of it I've written myself, with the occassional splat book for inspiration.
Mapmaking: don't even worry about this early on. My suggestion? Pick a shape. Add some funny bumps to it. Not big enough for how you imagine it? Add more shapes on your shape. Draw some lines through it (rivers). Get messy. Seriously. Maps are messy. Pick a size, and a general population. Nyaricus leans towards historical accuracy, I just pick numbers that sound good, then change them on the fly.
As you build the map (you'll see a theme here) write about each section as it occurs to you. Put a number on the map. Say, 1. And that number one becomes a set of pages in a binder (which is genius, listen to the person who said binder, I use notebooks and I'm always flipping around. Binder.) which then gain definition as you write about them. We'll say "1" is a capital city of a major kingdom. It houses people, like the King & Queen. Or just the King, who's just but gay, and struggles to his infidelities from his people. Or just a Queen, who's too good for her own good, and is running her kingdom into the ground because she's farming out recourses to help others. Or a Viscount with a horrendous reputation as he holds the throne for the future Queen who's still an infant, but is actually a major hero of the story, because he is Good and Just, but unapologetic about he runs the state and wants that Queen to inherit a worthwhile, prosperous kingdom.
And then '2'. And so on. I don't know if those suggestions help you or not; but the more you think outside the box, and the more you write, refine and invest in the project, the more your players will love it, because none of them - not one - love much more than a place they can believe in and be part of.
LCpt. Thia Halmades
Yeah, serious. Started young, never quit. So, question one: is it worth it? Dude, it's worth exactly how much you decide it is. You've heard garbage in, garbage out? The same principal applies. If you invest your time, passion and effort into defining, refining, developing and building your world, it will become an extension of your psyche. It will take on a life of its own inside your mind, and you'll be able to spin, change, move and understand the ebb & flow of it without breaking out of it.
Rome wasn't built in a day. TRUE DAT. Getting to that point takes years. For me, it's much simpler because I have a series of ideas I continually refine and invest in a new place (such as my current HB campaign setting). I have stacks of rules and axioms I run my games by which keep everyone on the page I want them to be on in order to tell the story successfully.
Nyaricus brings up a good comparison with the GTA series; I have a Ravenloft campaign which runs under a similar 'sandbox' design; here's the world, here's some plotlines, pick what you like and run with it. Once you choose a direction, I can more effectively build a plot to go with it. This is an open-ended storyline; in this case I have an ultimate villain, and a group of heroes, but they're choosing the path they take to get from here to there. They choose which sites they see on the way, which battles they fight and what the world and its inhabitants mean to them.
You mention the "World-Saving Campaign" which ultimately is what a lot of D&D becomes because just hanging out in the local tavern doesn't get you real far; it goes against the grain of the game, which is about mighty heroes & horrendous villains (BoVD, how I do love thee). The demon plot you have is (in concept) similar to something I'm doing, except I have a much larger story built around the plot line; that's my fingerprint. The actual Story Arc.
- WHO is the villain? How did he come to this point? What need will he fulfill by executing his plan? Why is that plan important to him? When is it a good time for the PCs to encounter him? Personal favorite trick? Introduce the villain in the beginning of the campaign as an innocent NPC. Amusingly, I didn't do that this time and everyone suspects the Paladin at the head of their Order is the BBEG. Irony.
- WHY do the PCs care? When you mentioned you were content to let them sort of runamok and gain treasure, that's a measure sticking point for me. My games are the antithesis of the stereotypical D&D experience. Building the world is great; kingdoms, histories, etc. All great. The question all PCs ask (intentionally or not) is "Do I care?" You need to give them something and make it important to them. For example:
In the Ravenloft campaign, I let everyone do their own character gen, but with one caveat. In all of their character histories, they must include their Uncle Hammet, who raised them for varying periods of time in his ancestral mansion. This did two things instantly. First, it got everyone talking and defining -- on their own terms, with my help -- who Hammet was and what he meant to each of them, giving them common ground. Second, their characters were automatically invested in the concept of family. These are siblings, sometimes rivals, but all family. They aren't just "my adventuring party."
Then I killed Hammet. And that's how I started the game. I say this because during that process, they're asking questions. "Did we go on trips?" "Did we have servants, what are their names?" "Is there a major holiday? Birthday? What were those like?" All of those questions forced me to come up with answers, and build in more characters, more reasons, and solidify the construct of their reality, before going on and answering larger questions; Who killed Hammet? Why?
That's the reason I brought up this specific example; usually I start with a major story arc (a demonic invasion) and build it up into a fairly linear storyline. The PCs get choices as to where to go and what to do, but they keep their eyes on the prize. They're invested in the world and have bought into saving it as being a worthwhile and important thing. With the Ravenloft campaign, there's a much larger world with far less linearity. I started with a premise: Your uncle has been murdered.
No order to find the killer; they did that on their own. I gave them the mansion, X-Men style, to rebuild and improve as they saw fit. Or sell it. But since it contains their entire history as a family, they aren't getting rid of it. I made the basement a dungeon for a change of pace, and I put Uncle Hammet's Ghost in his study, along with how he was murdered and by what, if not whom. From there, the world was built expressly based on how the players approached it. They go to a tavern, I have one ready, with cast & crew standing by. They go through a cemetary, I have an encounter. When I wasn't ready for them to go somewhere, I told them so.
In this case, I've kept them in the loop. I'm doing what I call reactive writing, instead of proactive writing. Once they've settled on some basic plots I can expand the writing much more easily, because they're on a temporarily linear path. Then as they make decisions I can more easily anticipate where they'll go next.
These are the two basic methods I use to start developing my worlds. I call it a Ravenloft game, because that's the concrete I used to pour the foundation, but the rest of it I've written myself, with the occassional splat book for inspiration.
Mapmaking: don't even worry about this early on. My suggestion? Pick a shape. Add some funny bumps to it. Not big enough for how you imagine it? Add more shapes on your shape. Draw some lines through it (rivers). Get messy. Seriously. Maps are messy. Pick a size, and a general population. Nyaricus leans towards historical accuracy, I just pick numbers that sound good, then change them on the fly.
As you build the map (you'll see a theme here) write about each section as it occurs to you. Put a number on the map. Say, 1. And that number one becomes a set of pages in a binder (which is genius, listen to the person who said binder, I use notebooks and I'm always flipping around. Binder.) which then gain definition as you write about them. We'll say "1" is a capital city of a major kingdom. It houses people, like the King & Queen. Or just the King, who's just but gay, and struggles to his infidelities from his people. Or just a Queen, who's too good for her own good, and is running her kingdom into the ground because she's farming out recourses to help others. Or a Viscount with a horrendous reputation as he holds the throne for the future Queen who's still an infant, but is actually a major hero of the story, because he is Good and Just, but unapologetic about he runs the state and wants that Queen to inherit a worthwhile, prosperous kingdom.
And then '2'. And so on. I don't know if those suggestions help you or not; but the more you think outside the box, and the more you write, refine and invest in the project, the more your players will love it, because none of them - not one - love much more than a place they can believe in and be part of.
LCpt. Thia Halmades
Brasswatchman
First Post
Damn, Thia. Respect. That Ravenloft campaign sounds fantastic.
Thia Halmades
First Post
Eh... thanks. I appreciate the compliment.
They like it, and that's my main objective; putting together a game all my players can get behind and be invested in, and that's what I try to help other folk do.Thanks again. That really made my day.
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