World/campaign building: combine ideas, or focus?

For now, I'm putting my money on a renaissance-style game.

This is an excellent and under-utilized historical period for gaming. Is it just going to be early modern technology or will there be an early modern worldview as well?

There's a single, strong empire, that has just discovered a new continent. Most of the action will focus around the building of a new city and civilisation on the new continent, and exploring what's in the inlands.

Remember: when Europeans "discovered" the Americas the second time around, they did not have the capacity nor inclination to "build" a civilization there. Intially, settlement/colonization was only successful in areas where they could piggy-back existing infrastructure. So, colonization was really limited to areas where they could use Meso-American and Andean infrastructure from the outset. It was only through massive liquidation of and tribute from these civilizations that Europeans were able to garner the economic resources needed to engage in the second phase of colonization.

So, just to push you, are you going to do the Pizarro/Cortes phase or are you going to do the phase following that when infrastructure has been taken over and sufficient plunder and tribute have been levied to begin developing the area? Or are you going to work from a different narrative? If so, you need to think about what is motivating your empire to repatriate its citizens and invest in an area far from its own core territory.

Good luck!
 
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OK, I have an additional question (and I'm sorry if it takes this thread in a different direction), but i've had it on my mind for a while and need to ask.

Is there a way to design a campaign where "the end is declared from the beginning" without railroading the PCs? Especially with the enjoyable "make it up as you go along" style that's been advocated in this thread?

Is there a way to have, for example, a prophecy that is announced early on in the campaign that ends up being fulfilled by the end of the campaign without railroading the PCs, and without compromising the prophecy or making it so vague/over-generalized that it can't help but happen? I would love to have a Nostrodomus-type in my campaign, foretelling some great and terrible event on the horizon, and me (as DM) dropping hints/foreshadowing all over the place during the course of the campaign. At the end, the players discover that the prophecy is true & has come to pass, no matter what they did--or didn't--do to stop it. (This could also be applicable to time travel campaigns, where events from the past are not "alterable" even if the PCs travel back in time to change them.)

For example, an Agatha Christie mystery novel would never work in a D&D game because it would require too much railroading of the PCs to pull off successfully, especially one with a surprise or twist ending. Alfred Hitchcock films/stories would translate poorly for similar reasons.

I look at the X-Files as a prime example of "writing as you go along" and how it really bit the audience in the butt at the end of the series. It started off well, with a fairly clear direction that the conspiracy was going in. By the 4th season, however, you began to see big signs that the writers had NO IDEA where Chris Carter was going (if even *he* knew where he was going)! Finally, by the 8th-9th season, it was a terrible mess....the actors were trying to get out, the audience didn't understand what the hell was going on with all the conspiracies, and Chris Carter ended up with egg on his face (IMO) because the writing was unmanageable and out of control.

How does one avoid the tangled mess of making the story up on the fly, yet keep The End in mind for the course of an entire campaign without railroading the PCs? Is it possible? Or is it better to let the PCs determine the end of the story and just act/react based off them?
 
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Wraith Form said:
How does one avoid the tangled mess of making the story up on the fly, yet keep The End in mind for the course of an entire campaign without railroading the PCs? Is it possible? Or is it better to let the PCs determine the end of the story and just act/react based off them?

It depends:)

Well yeah typical answer but I think in this case it does - is roleplaying shared 'storytelling' where the players and DM implicit agree to tell a story or is it a contest where Players do as they please and DMs react?

If the later than any attempt at creating an end is going to be seen as railroading, if the former 'shared storytelling' then you are on better ground. The trick then is to create a common cause that all the players can aspire to, - usually the typical Good vs Evil wherein the players agree to be good and seek to destroy evil and then provide a number of lesser objectives on the way - in other words a background metaplot that provides context.

Take 'Star Wars' for instance, the Cause is to destroy the Empire the current objective to destroy the Death Star. Within the context of the Cause you can have all manner of adventures some of which may have nothing at all to do with the cause (ie Metaplot)

(eg IMC have a context which sees the Lord of Darkness seeking five sacred stones with which to open the Gate to the Underworld and thus take over the mortal realm.
One of the Dark Lords agents is a Cult of Zealots and so far the only contact the PCs have had with the metaplot is a run in with this Cult. So far they know nothing of the Dark Lords plan nor will they unless the recover one of the five stones.)
 


Fusangite, thanks for the helpfuil feedback. I don't really intend to run a historical campaign, but it's nice to have some 'real' knowledge to make the fantasy world feel more realistic. I'll tell you some of my plans below, first I'll try to answer Wraith Form's question

I think the key to making your prophecy work is player cooperation. To avoid rail-roading, it is (IMO) essential to have a strong PC motivation. Each of the PC's should have a reason for wanting[/u] the prophecy to come true. That way, if there are some conditionals in the prophecy, it's up to the players (and the PC's) to make sure that they come true. A good way to set up this would be to make the rise of evil inevitable, but make the prophecy deal with how to stop it. It's up to the PC's to interpret the prophecy and take the steps detailed in it. THat way, it's up to them to find solutions to the riddle, and get everything done before X happens (which is up to the DM, of course). (WF, if you want to discuss this further, I'd ask you to create a new thread. I'd be more than happy to go into greater detail there. Thanks)

My campaign plans so far:
The action would take place after the initial colonization has been done. The first travellers found an existing largish city, ready to inhabit. All of the houses etc look wierd, as if from some unknown culture. Still, the place is abandonded, and looks like it has been for quite a long time. Amid the houses in the (partially ruined) city, these first few explorers found strange items with odd powers (maybe minor magical, or just wierd). These items have become quite popular, which is enough incentive to explore more. The surrounding area would be forest, or jungle, and strangely dangerous. Several more structures have been found inland, With more items, and clues as to who lived here long ago.

Meanwhile, there would be a political struggle going in both the New World and the old lands, with lots of nobles and merchants trying to gain more influence over the new-found commodities. The King might not have appointed a Duke yet for the new city, preferring the increased rate of exploration due to the competition going on. Every competitor wants to gain prestige by bringing in more items/paintings/writings/etc. In short, there would be exploration, coupled with some diplomacy and (dirty) politics.

As for the renaissance advancement, it's even more based on worldview than on technology. That's what I hope to accomplish by using D20 Modern classes. The life of people is not just determined by their profession (class), but they have an awareness that they can shape themselves. People don't think of themselves as Fighter, Rogue or Ranger. It's about what you're capable of and what you know (focus to skill-heavy classes, less on class abilities). I might even include some primitive races for contrast, that would still use D&D classes. Some tribe of Lizardlike creatures, that was 'pacified' some hundred years ago and is now starting to blend into society.

Fanog
 

Fanog said:
My campaign plans so far:
The action would take place after the initial colonization has been done. The first travellers found an existing largish city, ready to inhabit. All of the houses etc look wierd, as if from some unknown culture. Still, the place is abandonded, and looks like it has been for quite a long time.

I know its your game but having a large and abandoned city ready to inhabit seems a little too convinient to me. Unless of course that you mean a ruined city in the wilderness which must still be explored and cleansed of any lingering 'evil' before it is truely habitable:). In the mean time the settlers have established a bridgehead and good relations with the native lizardfolk

Amid the houses in the (partially ruined) city, these first few explorers found strange items with odd powers (maybe minor magical, or just wierd). These items have become quite popular, which is enough incentive to explore more. The surrounding area would be forest, or jungle, and strangely dangerous. Several more structures have been found inland, With more items, and clues as to who lived here long ago

I'd suggest some kind of crystal that gives off light and has become all the rage back in the old world - unknown to the old worlders the crystals are very powerful if correctly tapped (psionics perhaps) - perhaps it was misuse of these crystals that caused the city to be abandoned. Oh and definately include Crystal skulls

Meanwhile, there would be a political struggle going in both the New World and the old lands, with lots of nobles and merchants trying to gain more influence over the new-found commodities. The King might not have appointed a Duke yet for the new city, preferring the increased rate of exploration due to the competition going on. Every competitor wants to gain prestige by bringing in more items/paintings/writings/etc. In short, there would be exploration, coupled with some diplomacy and (dirty) politics.

Cool setup I'm wondering what the role of the PCs will be within the setting - will they be 'mere pawns in the games of powerful men' or will they be the Powerful Men playing games with the lives of those around them!

I'd suggest that the King definately NOT have appointed a Duke for the colony yet. This scenario is pretty much crying out for a weak, ineffectual and easily corruptable 'central authority' - this allows all kinds of political shennanigans to occur and also gives room for the PCs to move in and assume 'authority' - legitimate or otherwise - if they so wish

As for the renaissance advancement, it's even more based on worldview than on technology. That's what I hope to accomplish by using D20 Modern classes. The life of people is not just determined by their profession (class), but they have an awareness that they can shape themselves. People don't think of themselves as Fighter, Rogue or Ranger. It's about what you're capable of and what you know (focus to skill-heavy classes, less on class abilities). I might even include some primitive races for contrast, that would still use D&D classes. Some tribe of Lizardlike creatures, that was 'pacified' some hundred years ago and is now starting to blend into society.

Fanog

Don't forget the 'natives' - they're not just monsters afterall -

Also renaissance saw the development of alchemy as Natural Magicks or 'Science' in which Magicians saw themselves as Philosophers and distinct from Scorcerers who dealth with foul spirits - how will you incorporate this?
 
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I thought the abandonded city might give me the opportunity to stress that they were not the first inhabitants of the continent. Since the settlement is well underway, most of the initial exploreation of the city is complete. By placing the action beyond this initial exploration (say after 10, 20 years or so), the colonists can really start to create their own culture and customs. But you can be sure that there would be unknown parts of the city, catacombs perhaps...
What I didn't make clear, perhaps, was that the settlers haven't encoutered intelligent life just yet (at least, not that they're aware of. ;)) The Lizardfolk are natives of the old world and have been in contact with the humans for quite some centuries. Many of them have become civiziled, some even live in human citues. There are also still some wild tribes, who will not yield to the new ways of humankind. (Lots of potential for cultural conflict. :))

Crystals might be nice indeed. I think there should be several different kinds of objects, maybe some jewelry as well. There will be a low amount of magic, some hedde magic mostly. Inventors are starting to take over, because their methods prove more reliable than magic. (no detect magic spell, for example).

The PC's can have any number of roles in the new world, jungle explorers, sages or inventors identifying what has been brought in, Kingmen to keep order, or simply those who try to test their luck in the new world. I'm hoping for lots of different characters, who would all have their own goals and methods. No strict 'adventuring party', so to say.

I'm not really sure of religion just yet. There might be a church of two gods, but interest would be waning in times of technological advancement. As a reaction, some people (maybe including the wizards) might turn to some new form of mysticism. I'll have to think it over. Religion and world view might provide another good reason to go exploring the new world, which could add another interested party, and another layer of possible intrige.

Thanks for the questions and suggestions. They really keep my creative juices going, and help me to continue developing in a good pace.

Fanog
 

The action would take place after the initial colonization has been done. The first travellers found an existing largish city, ready to inhabit.

Of course, things similar to this took place in parts the New World that smallpox reached before Europeans did. You might want to think about why the city was suddenly abandoned.

All of the houses etc look wierd, as if from some unknown culture. Still, the place is abandonded, and looks like it has been for quite a long time.

This seems to conflict a little with "ready to inhabit" but also was a common situation in the New World, Teoteohuacan being one of the best examples. The resolution of abandoned long ago vs. ready to inhabit is going to be, to a large extent, determined by the ecosystem of the region. If it's jungle, the gap between a city being abandoned and ready to inhabit is pretty small; in a mixed woodlands, on the other time, you have more flexibility in terms of time.

Meanwhile, there would be a political struggle going in both the New World and the old lands, with lots of nobles and merchants trying to gain more influence over the new-found commodities. The King might not have appointed a Duke yet for the new city, preferring the increased rate of exploration due to the competition going on.

This does not sound like the Renaissance. Nor does it sound like how government functions; frontier regions are virtually ungovernable at the best of times. Even with clear authority, a large garrison of imperial troops and special laws and jurisdiction for the region, it is going to be chaos. I think the kind of competition/freedom you are talking about will take place no matter what; if the crown seems uncommitted to providing a modicum of authority, merchants probably won't be willing to risk it. So I would recommend you re-thinking this. Early modern government jurisdiction is pretty inherently precarious anyway, even within core territories with clear authority systems.

Every competitor wants to gain prestige by bringing in more items/paintings/writings/etc. In short, there would be exploration, coupled with some diplomacy and (dirty) politics.

If formalization of this competition is important to you, you might want to consider going the chartered company route (even if it is a bit of an anachronism -- it starts 150-200 years later) with the crown chartering companies with the right to explore/plunder and some jurisdiction along with it.

[QUOT]As for the renaissance advancement, it's even more based on worldview than on technology. That's what I hope to accomplish by using D20 Modern classes. The life of people is not just determined by their profession (class), but they have an awareness that they can shape themselves.[/QUOTE]

There is a pretty serious anachronism problem here. This is 18th century thinking not 15th century thinking that you are describing. Now, of course, fortune hunters, within a society are always going to be self-made people so I don't think you need to worry that people coming to the New World are going to have this view. But I think you will create real problems if you make this the prevalent view in society.

People don't think of themselves as Fighter, Rogue or Ranger. It's about what you're capable of and what you know (focus to skill-heavy classes, less on class abilities).

This is a good mechanical move that I wholly endorse. However, I would really recommend against you giving your society too modern a view of hierarchy and social order.

I might even include some primitive races for contrast, that would still use D&D classes. Some tribe of Lizardlike creatures, that was 'pacified' some hundred years ago and is now starting to blend into society.

This strikes me as messy. Find ways to represent D20 Modern.

I'm not really sure of religion just yet. There might be a church of two gods, but interest would be waning in times of technological advancement.

Again, this is really anachronistic. This is a development after Newton (ie. another 18th century development). It is beginning to sound to me that you want to run an 18th century style game and not a 15th century style game. The early modern period was about expanding science but the religion/science/magic barriers our culture perceives did not exist. If you were a good astronomer, chances are, you were a good astrologer. Copernicus created his model of the heavens motivated principally by the discovery of the "hermetic texts," an occult tract from the 3rd century AD.

I'd appreciate it if you would clarify what renaissance aspects you really want the game to have.

Tonguez also makes some good points about why a big chunk of the world has no significant sentient inhabitants. It suggests some kind of incredible cataclysm has happened; you might want to put some thought into when and what kind of cataclysm took place.
 

Just got out of the shower (where I often do my best thinking). I'm thinking that, abandoned cities aside, your narrative is a lot closer to the Australia story than to the Americas story. I know little about Australia but it may be worthwhile for you to take a look at it in setting up your world.
 

Fusangite, thanks for the thorought reply. I really appreciate it. As for the actual time frame I'd set this in, I guess I'm not too. I'm not that much of a history-buff, I'l have to do some reading on what went where (so to speak).

Even in the end, I might choose to mix some things that were (historically speaking) seperated by several centuries, but some consistancy will never hurt. I've got enough to think about, will probably have a new post up some time tomorrow.

Keep 'em coming. :)
Fanog
 

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