Pathfinder 1E World of Golarion going Lovecraft too much?

[Squire James]

Of course, defining what is "too much" of anything in a game is pretty subjective. The best you can do is find a count of how many people think that threshold has been reached. It's a decent poll question, and finding out how many people believe as you do, believe the opposite, is indifferent on the issue, or thinks the question silly is useful information.

Lovecraft has managed to imagine up some pretty interesting critters, so it is only natural to stat out a few of them. Unlike the Call of Cthulu setting, though, the Old Ones don't quite seem to have the kind of power relative to other forces to cause as much cosmic destruction. Characters in CoC never attain the kind of power that a level 20+ PC could wield, so there is always that chance that Rovagug/Cthulu might wish they were still asleep after meeting the likes of them!

I've seen nothing in the setting that makes cosmic destruction a certainty. The likes of Azathoth has lots of HP, sure, but that doesn't mean the PC's allied with a bunch of "younger gods" can't figure out a way to take them all away!

 

[ShinHakkaider]

There is an inherent connection between the rules and the setting. This is not GURPs or Savage Worlds. If you do have a point in the above sentence then you might want to clarify it because like many of your posts in the thread they are just brief snippets that fail to explain your position clearly.

I also guess that my point about Pathfinder and Golarion being used interchangeably because both of them existed before the actual ruleset was conveniently ignored as well.

EDIT: I meant to post this response for Systole, not you Crothian. Ugh. St00pid lack of sleep...

 

[Lwaxy]

Just to note that we don't play with the original PF rules, we use a homebrew of 3.5/PF, some earlier editions plus a few other changes. For the original question, it is totally irrelevant with what set of rules you play on Golarion. It's just about what people think of the Lovecraftianization (my players invented that lol) of Golarion, or if it even exists

 

[DragonLancer]

I love all thing's Lovecraftian but even I find that sometimes it appears too often in non-Lovecraftian games. It kind of spoils it a little. But that just means I use it sparingly if at all.

 

[James Jacobs]

If there's any one person to blame or thank for the Lovecraftian elements that have appeared in Golarion (or in the Bestiaries, for that matter, with things like gugs and shoggoths and zoogs)... that one person would be me.

That said, I've actually really been hesitant to let loose the full "mythos firehose" on Golarion, because as much as I love me the Lovecraft, I'll be the first to concede and admit that the mythos is a strong spice indeed, and a little goes a long way.

As a result, I do keenly watch threads like these to try to keep track of what might be too much and what might be not enough Lovecraft in Golarion... be it full-on mythos content (such as what we did in Carrion Hill, Spires of Xin-Shalast, Wake of the Watcher, or a few others) or mythos-friendly/similar content (such as Feast of Ravenmoor or parts of the Darklands). We HAVE seen evidence that products that have actual Lovecraftian elements in them sell better... and feedback in threads like these DOES further support the fact that it's good business to do Lovecraftian stuff.

But it's not something we'll be doing all the time. The rate at which we've been doing Lovecraftian stuff seems to me to be about right.

It's probably worth noting that I don't subscribe to the philosophy that if you use the mythos in a game setting that automatically means the game setting is DOOM AND GLOOM and that there's no way for good to triumph. Golarion, like all campaign settings, has plenty of ways to meet its end. Even if we didn't have the mythos in the mix, we still have Rovagug, the Whispering Tyrant, a dozen or so races of fiends, evil titans, aboleths, runelords, the tarrasque, and much, much more that aren't Lovecraft creations that could, in theory, be the agents of the "end times."

Furthermore... unlike Earth, where Lovecraft set many (but not all*) of his stories, Golarion has heroes capable of casting wish, flying, teleporting, raising the dead, and so on. That's a lot of firepower you can bring to save the day. Lovecraftian elements do not need to mean "there's no chance to win."**

*For a fantasy setting like Golarion, it's actually better to look to Lovecraft's dreamlands stories for inspiration on how to weave Nyarlathotep and gugs and ghasts and the mythos into a setting than it is to look to his later tales.

**This is actually true in Lovecraft's stories as well. While a lot of them have a "humanity is cosmically insignificant" type theme to them... the stories themselves often see humanity defeating the forces of the mythos... if only temporarily. And as long as there are heroes to keep defeating/delaying the mythos... in the same way the professors save the world in "The Dunwich Horror" or the US Government puts down the threat in "Shadow over Innsmouth" or so on... the end times can be delayed indefinitely, can't they? I mean... what are heroes for if not for doing just that?

 

[paradox42]

If there's any one person to blame or thank for the Lovecraftian elements that have appeared in Golarion (or in the Bestiaries, for that matter, with things like gugs and shoggoths and zoogs)... that one person would be me.

Thank you James!

 

[Matthias]

If I'm being brief, it's because I've already spelled out my opinion multiple times, and I'm just getting tired of repeating myself.

The question is, "Is there too much Lovecraft in Golarion?" Not "Can you play a Lovecraft-free Pathfinder game?" My answer to the that first question is: Any amount of eldritch horror implies a hopeless universe. In my opinion, Golarion should not be a hopeless universe. Therefore, I do not think Golarion should have any Lovecraftian elements.

You're welcome to disagree with me, but I don't feel I'm being contrary simply because I have an opinion and I have not been convinced otherwise by any of the counterarguments in this thread.

I think your definition of "Lovecraftian" is too broad. I would limit it to stories and RPGs designed to function in a setting superficially similar to real-world Earth of any time period from the 1920s to the present day. The Golarion campaign setting as currently conceived does not resemble this at all, therefore there have been no "Lovecraftian elements" introduced. Similarly, you cannot have "elements of Jurassic Park" in Golarion just by introducing a tropical island populated with dinosaurs cloned with magic.

 

[Lwaxy]

If there's any one person to blame or thank for the Lovecraftian elements that have appeared in Golarion (or in the Bestiaries, for that matter, with things like gugs and shoggoths and zoogs)... that one person would be me.

A-ha *smacks with a wet paper stick*

I think it only turns out to be a real issue if you have cthulhuphobes in the groups. Funny enough, I guess it still would not have been a prob if it had not been over the internet on Chtulhu fan pages that Golarion "goes Lovecraft." Because I doubt most of the monster types/elements would have been been recognized as such, as someone else pointed out before.

Some of the reading up on Cthulhu in Golarion was done because some fan stories they read referred heavily to Cthulhu stuff, so much even someone hating the mythos would notice. Most of my "not again" moments were with fan material, too. I was at times wondering if I was reading Golarion stuff or CoC stories I guess that only shows more people like it than not.

 

[Systole]

I also guess that my point about Pathfinder and Golarion being used interchangeably because both of them existed before the actual ruleset was conveniently ignored as well.

EDIT: I meant to post this response for Systole, not you Crothian. Ugh. St00pid lack of sleep...

It wasn't 'conveniently ignored.' It was deliberately ignored because you can't seem to comprehend that rules and setting are different things. By way of example, I could take the Golarion setting and convert it to another ruleset like GURPS, or I could take the PF ruleset and use it in a setting which has nothing whatsoever to do with Golarion.

So, let me spell this out one last time for the reading comprehension impaired: Ruleset + setting = game, in the same way that apples + pie crust = apple pie. Your argument can be summed up as, "But if you don't like pie crust, how can you possibly justify eating apples?"

I hope you'll forgive me for not thinking that warranted a response.

 

[Piratecat]

Stop being rude. Guys, it's fine if people don't agree with you. It never permits you to then lose your temper, insult anyone, or tell other people what they apparently think. No more of this, please.