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worlds and monsters is in my hands

Kamikaze Midget said:
But monsters more tied to the world allow me to do that seamlessly. They also allow me to use them as things other than combat XP bumps. I can use centaurs as guides in the forest, and dryads as allies against the orcs, and angels as benefactors of the party. If the Centaurs don't have skill information and the Dryads are over-powered if they help the PC's, and the only angels are those that want to kill the PC's for various reasons, the MM has failed it's duty to me; it's failed to give me creatures that can populate my world, only creatures that can populate my battles.
It's possible that you'll no longer find that kind of information in the 4E monster manuals. However, maybe that's because this book isn't the best place for that kind of information. Isn't such information better placed in books like the 3E Draconomicon, Libris Mortis, and Lords of Madness?

Furthermore I had the impressions that for 4E monsters the designers didn't want to set the non-combat abilities of monsters into stone.
You want centaurs to be good forest guides? Fine, give them the appropriate skills.
You want centaurs to be the keepers of ancient lore? Fine, give them the appropriate skills.
Imho, this approach actually empowers the DM. You've got more creative freedom when populating your campaign world.

And, as has been mentioned already, this creates an excellent market niche for ecology style supplements from 3rd parties.
 

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Will someone with 'Worlds and Monsters' PLEASE start a new thread where we can see the info without having to wade through arguments that have been had on MANY threads. I just want to know what is in the book....NOT what everyone thinks about something that is 'implied'. A new thread would be better from someone willing to reveal some info and answer Q's, not just 'Ha, I got it so I'll start a thread and leave'. ;)

Just for the record....where does it say that monsters will NOT have a section devoted to non combat abilities? If dragons are casters just add levels of a spellcasting class = obvious to me. Combat abilities only? What? Haven't some of these creatures ALREDY had several pages of fluff write-up and we aren't even at release yet? What will make these people happy? ;) ....Now back to thread - or a new one preferably.
 

Jhaelen said:
It's possible that you'll no longer find that kind of information in the 4E monster manuals. However, maybe that's because this book isn't the best place for that kind of information. Isn't such information better placed in books like the 3E Draconomicon, Libris Mortis, and Lords of Madness?

Furthermore I had the impressions that for 4E monsters the designers didn't want to set the non-combat abilities of monsters into stone.
You want centaurs to be good forest guides? Fine, give them the appropriate skills.
You want centaurs to be the keepers of ancient lore? Fine, give them the appropriate skills.
Imho, this approach actually empowers the DM. You've got more creative freedom when populating your campaign world.

And, as has been mentioned already, this creates an excellent market niche for ecology style supplements from 3rd parties.

Holy Crap! Empowering the DM!?! You speak madness sir!

Seriously, I share your view. I don't so much care about 3rd party products, but the empowered DM thing is right on.
 

I would like to tell you all how it is but its opinion and opinion means nothing. So I wil state this.

I want RULES in my RULES books. I want FLUFF in my FLUFF books. That means in the Core 3 I want 80% rules/guidelines and in my fluff books I want 80% fuff.

This allows me to get exactly what I want and how I want it. How many of you remember the Realms when the books you bought for it were full of details and only a apendix or so of rules? I want to run a game in the Bloodstone Lands I pick up the splat bookf or relatively cheap and it gives me all the adventure hooks and details I need. The monsters are pretty much covered in the MM or the MM exert for the Realms itself. I get detailed information for what I want in relevance for what I want it for.

Who here remembers the ecology exerts from Dragon magazine. Through my fluff in the DNDI and magazines that I can poke through and enjoy. I want inspiration to be were I need it.

That is my opinion.

As for this book looks awesome and I love everything I have heard. Dragons don't need magic to make thier lairs plausible I mean the pharoah didn't use magic to make the pyramids. Anyone thinking a dragon is useless with out its magic is silly. I never once ever feared a dragons ability to spell cast. Its toooooooo easy to counter. Now thier breath and thier melee that was scary.

I am glad they got rid of the whole alignment thing. DND has been way to hooked into the Alignment thing and no one ever got it right. The endless pathetic arguements about what chaos and lawful meant and weather it was a social reference or a ideological reference was mind numbing and such a hinderance to true RP.

More give us more.
 

Propheous_D said:
anyone thinking a dragon is useless with out its magic is silly.

Welcome to ENWorld :)

I do hope you enjoy participating in the many threads we have here, but I must remind you that it is not OK to be rude to other people, and that includes calling other people silly with blanket generalisations.

If you've got any questions about this, feel free to email me.

Thanks
 

For me, it's a bit of a balancing act. Obviously, it'd be unreasonable to expect, and I know I don't expect absolutely everything you do to be straight out of a book somewhere. Fantastic eldritch machines that power floating cities are cool, and we probably don't really need to know the exact area or amount of weight they can support. On the other hand, something like the "spell you've never heard of or seen with no roll made that's astoundingly effective" that I've run into a good few times - both in personal experience, and in some printed sources like the Avatar Trilogy modules that bridged 1e and 2e FR - instantly disengages me from the game and annoys me with the story. I personally lean much more towards wanting rules and stats for everything, because I'm a worldbuilder and a sandbox GM much more than I am a storyteller, so I address things from "does this result in a fun world structure that isn't laughable from a 5000' view, or maybe even a 2000' view" perspective.

For example, the Nine Hells in 3e were pretty laughable from a 5000' view. Asmodeus managed to rule them unquestionably. However, a lot of deities made their homes in the Nine Hells. By their written statblocks, even the god of kobolds could appear directly before Asmodeus at any time and nearly unfailingly slay him in a single blow. As such, the world structure was difficult to take seriously, because it failed to work within the rules presented.

A town of regular humans without any food supplies or trade would be pretty laughable from a 2000' view, as would the existence of tribes of kobolds whose weakest members were CR 19 who did not gravely impact regional politics, high-level (12+) brigands fully decked out in magic items and preying on 1st-level travelling commoners, et cetera.

I don't care quite so much about the sea-level view. I don't study how landmasses are formed, or study medieval economics, or whatnot, so I don't worry too hard about the economic model of the game working for commoners or whatnot. I just care when the error is so blatant that I can see it from 2000 feet up.

While the kobolds and the Nine Hells structure both fall into these sorts of errors, the former being bad worldbuilding and the latter being bad for worldbuilding because of its place in the assumed cosmology of pre-4e D&D, the main objection is to things like the latter where, without extensive writing, a being cannot actually do the things it has been described as doing or is described as doing, because it is a combat statblock with a description stapled on.
 

Lackhand said:
I like the Iron Dragon. I don't like the Adamantine Dragon. I could never remember the difference between the Brass and Bronze dragon :)

I don't like the Adamantine Dragon because it's not one of the classical metals -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_planets_in_Western_alchemy -- and because it's just a supermetal, more "iron" than iron is. Blech. I would have preferred Mercury or Lead as a dragontype, instead. Indeed, depending on what Adamantine Dragons get, I may just call them Leaden Dragons.

Looking forward to the shadow power source.

I totally agree. Iron Dragons yay, Adamantite boo. Even if you're using fantasy metals, Mithril would be better, and even Mithril would be stupid.

Although, Mercury Dragons are a very interesting possibility... Especially as a poison-breathing metallic... hmmm...
 

Greenfaun said:
I totally agree. Iron Dragons yay, Adamantite boo. Even if you're using fantasy metals, Mithril would be better, and even Mithril would be stupid.

Although, Mercury Dragons are a very interesting possibility... Especially as a poison-breathing metallic... hmmm...
I considered that in my post, but cut it because it wasn't pithy enough for me.

Iron is to adamantite as Silver is to Mithril as Gold is to Orichalcum as Copper is to... Bronze? :-)
 

Greenfaun said:
I totally agree. Iron Dragons yay, Adamantite boo. Even if you're using fantasy metals, Mithril would be better, and even Mithril would be stupid.

Although, Mercury Dragons are a very interesting possibility... Especially as a poison-breathing metallic... hmmm...

Adamant is an ancient word for "diamond" that was sometimes applied to superhard mythical substances.

For example, in some versions of Norse mythology, Loki was bound underground by adamantine chains.

"Adamant" or "adamantine" is also used in Edmund Spenser's Faerie Queen and John Milton's Paradise Lost, and Greek mythology, so it has fairly old precedent in mythology and fantasy literature. More recently, Marvel Comics has 'adamantium' and World of Warcraft and Runescape both have 'adamantite.'

So 'adamantine' is older, more widespread, and has far more mythological tradition than 'mithril' which Tolkien pretty much invented (and D&D swiped with a slight respelling).
 

JohnSnow said:
Adamant is an ancient word for "diamond" that was sometimes applied to superhard mythical substances.

For example, in some versions of Norse mythology, Loki was bound underground by adamantine chains.

"Adamant" or "adamantine" is also used in Edmund Spenser's Faerie Queen and John Milton's Paradise Lost, and Greek mythology, so it has fairly old precedent in mythology and fantasy literature. More recently, Marvel Comics has 'adamantium' and World of Warcraft and Runescape both have 'adamantite.'

So 'adamantine' is older, more widespread, and has far more mythological tradition than 'mithril' which Tolkien pretty much invented (and D&D swiped with a slight respelling).
Yes But. That's just not what it means in D&D, especially in the context of metal. But, yeah, it's a pretty kickass word :)

Doesn't stop Mithril from being more poetic in this specific context, to me. I wouldn't want a Mithril dragon, either -- more silver than silver.
 

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