worlds and monsters is in my hands

[Lackhand]

The implied nature that the new addition moves further away from RP...yes, any system can have heavy RP since that'sthe style of the DM....BUT, the game itself, when they say that they are taking away the more difficult or harsh parts of certain planes to make them easier to use...that not only takes away the challenge of those places but makes it much more cookie cutter.

In older adventures, it mentions that players have to do research on stuff, prepare, etc.

Now, and I understand it probably does make it more fun for most people, they don'[t have that issue.

People don't need to ask the right questions to research as often, prepare, properly equip, etc.

Creatures have less or no immunities, most creatures won't have spells that can cause a hindrance to the party, planes are easier to survive in.

It's not a bad thing overall IMHO; it's a bad thing for my players and my style..but again, we'll just house rule the 50% of 4E that we don't like and keep the 50% we do like

To rebut and expand: Imagine two planes. One is the Plane of Nothing But Cheese, and the other is the plane of Random Unexpected Cheese.

On the plane of Nothing but Cheese, travelers know that there is nothing but petrifying Gorgonzola and beneficent Gouda cheese, and thus they go in buffed to the gills vs. cheese. Anything that requires that much protection becomes uninteresting: the actual effects of the plane are so deadly that full protection must be worn which, paradoxically, removes all danger of the surroundings.
On the plane of Fire, Dispel Magic is scarier than Fireball.
That's bad.

On the plane of Random Unexpected Cheese, travelers know that there are rivers of molten cheese and wild bands of Monterey Jacks out there, but they can see them coming. Cheesepuffs blow on the wind, so they need to be a bit careful, but the protection they need to bring isn't the same; if they get dispelled, they'll need to take cover, but they can survive with some pluck and luck.
Consider the Shadowfell which is ghost-haunted and shot through with spectral doldrums, which has sudden unexpected soul storms blowing through, bringing grim reminders of the briefness of all mortal existence. Contrast this with the Negative Energy Plane, which kills you in about as many rounds as you have levels.

I would still want to prepare to visit the Shadowfell, but it's a *lot* more interesting. If I don't last long enough on the negative because of its homogeneity of hostility, I don't get to have fun. That's not interesting -- focused areas that Just Kill You are fine, but an entire plane? Why bother? You have to shield yourself so heavily to go there that it `doesn't count` anymore.

 

[StarFyre]

response

Lackhand...

And that's why I say for some players or specifically my group...

All the players/DM's I have played with ENJOY those types of challenges. Finding ways to survive in the worst possible places.

However, i see your point with teh elemental plane of fire, where 1 thing can protect you from all challenges of the plane...but from what I remember of negative energy plane, there are tons of things there that cause issues. Some of which are quite harsh, others become more environmental challenges.

My party would try to find ways to protect from the former, and then intelligently deal with the latter. (referring to the negative energy plane)

Then again, my players are messed....they wanted to risk insanity, to roleplay and fight IN the Far Realm!!!!

!!!

I think also some of my hatred for aspects of the new cosmology is due to the customizations I have for my universe of D&D..that uses aspects of the great wheel, will be adding stuff from 4E BUT has a whole bunch of 'stuff' added/modified. Much of those changes make some of the issues, not as big a deal or make them easier to deal with for parties.

But then that gets into me house ruling.

YOu know what....maybe, due to all the houserules we have, we havent' noticed many of the 'unfun' areas of 2e/3.X, and never realized what other people are talking about..... hehehehe

ADDITION: I feel very stupid right now. Thinking more, I think many of the complaints player have (not in all respects, but many) we have house ruled, while keeping the general flavour of planescape as we liked it, so we never ran into many of the issues as others. Damnit! all my arguments were due to our over excessive house ruling...as opposed to intelligent arguments! *sigh* hehe atleast i know our game will be fine ongoing


Sanjay

 

[~Johnny~]

Hey, if anyone's jumping into this thread looking for details from the book, skip the past three pages (if you have the 30 posts per page view).

Not that the discussion isn't great, but it would be lovely to keep the focus on direct Q&A from people who have the book.

 

[Dausuul]

I would still want to prepare to visit the Shadowfell, but it's a *lot* more interesting. If I don't last long enough on the negative because of its homogeneity of hostility, I don't get to have fun. That's not interesting -- focused areas that Just Kill You are fine, but an entire plane? Why bother? You have to shield yourself so heavily to go there that it `doesn't count` anymore.

Yup. Adventuring on the 3E Inner Planes is actually pretty easy, because there's only one environmental hazard per plane. Get the spell or magic item that counters that hazard, and you're good to go. Of course, I don't know why you would want to go, because there's not much in those planes that's worth bothering with. When all four elemental planes are dumped together into one, with Limbo tossed in for good measure, that's a much more challenging environment than just "a whole lotta fire."

Consider: How many adventures have you run that took place on the Inner Planes? How many have you run that took place on the Outer Planes? For me, at least, the latter vastly outnumber the former. In fact, I think I've only gone to the Inner Planes once in my entire 20 years of playing D&D.

 

[Xyl]

I want rules for how the monster interacts with the world in the statblock, because nothing outside the statblock matters. Unfortunately, I fear most of these abilities and traits will be moved outside the statblock due to the process of streamlining the monster statblock for a single purpose -- combat.

Fixed.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Depending on what they mean by "strip away", it could be pretty easily explained. Definitely, blanket immunities in 4e will be rare to non-existent from what has been said.

I think a great way to explain it is the magic being overpowered by the sheer force of what its protecting against. Think of this in game fluff surrounding it: Jozan casts protection from fire on the Regdar to protect him from the dangers they will soon be facing. When they come across the dragon's fire archon minions who flank him, Regdar's protections flare up, a glowing red rune appearing on his arm signifying the spell. Later, when Regdar is hit by a red dragon's fiery breath, the rune glows red, then orange, then white, and finally it is gone, the fire far too hot for the spell, its sheer force overpowering it and dissipating its effect, at least for a time until the magic can reassert itself (or perhaps permenantly).

I like it!

 

[I'm A Banana]

Fixed.

I don't really care if the rules are in the statblock or elsewhere (and a streamlined statblock is a great goal that doesn't need a lot of secondary information), but I do want to be able to reference it during play (e.g.: without having to re-read a paragraph).

I just want them to BE THERE. And to actually BE RULES. It'd be a plus if they were good, and not 300 variations on "this is from the far realm!" and "this was crafted by the primordials!"

I would also want it to inform the mechanical choices made in the stat block. The combat statblock shouldn't invalidate use on the PC's side (by being too powerful, for instance), and should be consistent with the monster in the broader world context (how it lives shouldn't contradict how it fights).

 

[StarFyre]

I don't know...

The 3E planes weren't as detailed as the 2E.

I use the 3E for some things, but any plane is refered to only via official 2E PS works...I find there are much more hazards and benefits listed there...only, it takes house ruling for much of the effects.

The whole fire elemental vs fire breathe I still don't agree with. We use fire elementals to be a small sun almost (yes, in our games, a fire elemental will melt the environment around them and cause some pockets of air to ignire, etc).... a beam of fire (breathe weapon wouldn't hurt a star...it just won't!) That change I am very much against.

I think immunities have their place. But, some creatures in 3E have so many, it becomes a pain for parties to fight them.

I can appreciate that; but I still don't agree with the blanket statement to get rid of them all. Very...videogamish...

Sanjay

 

[small pumpkin man]

I can appreciate that; but I still don't agree with the blanket statement to get rid of them all. Very...videogamish...

Sanjay

No, most video games have flat immunities, a more detailed and staged system is less videogamish.

Not saying it's better, just saying it has absolutely nothing to do with making D&D more like a video game.

 

[JohnSnow]

That's a very good goal for the monsters, and they need to fill that niche, too. But it's not ALL they need to do. And it's not because I desperately want to simulate a working world. It's because someday the PC's are going to take a step that I haven't really thought about and I'm going to need all the advice possible on how to deal with that step.

It is, but I don't have $5,000.

Well, then you'll just have to wait until June to get the rules, and wait until next January to publish. People who choose not to pay for the developers' kit aren't shut out, they'll just get access to the SRD later, and won't be able to publish before January 1, 2009. Which means that by this time next year, you'll be able to publish whatever you feel like.

As far as "simulationist" monsters go, I can understand the theory of not wanting all monsters to be the same. However, I imagine there will be a section in the Monster Manual or DMG on how to customize monsters. If creatures are balanced primarily based on the actions they can take, there's nothing unbalancing about giving a monster a different (or maybe even extra) option that's roughly as powerful as its default abilities. This reflects the fact that a monter may have more abilities than the ones listed in its MM statblock, even if they are rarely useful in combat.

If those rules are good, that will provide all the benefits of 3e (totally customizable monsters) with one advantage 3e does NOT have - monsters that are playable right out of the book without any work on the DM's part. And for a lot of monsters (like dragons), that's somthing that just hasn't been true in previous editions.