Worlds & Monsters: humans are boring??

[Ruin Explorer]

However, in the past, D&D has introduced all of these fantasy elements and then hid them away where no one could see them or use them. The elves were always hiding in the forest and they never came out. The dwarves hiding in their mountains and never coming out. Magic was something normal people never used or even saw(except VERY rarely). It was dark ages Europe(or ancient Egypt, or ancient Greece, and so on) with a couple, hidden fantasy elements.

My only question is, how big was the rock you were living under, and were you really under there from the whole period 1981 to 2008?

Because there is literally no other explanation for your utterly bizarre claim.

I mean, what? In 2E we had Dark Sun, Spelljammer and Planescape amongst other settings which absolutely spat in the face of what you are claiming is "the way it was", without falling into "Mummies suck, Dwarves rule!" idiocy.

In 3E the 3E FR (arguably the 2E FR too) and Eberron particularly made an utter nonsense of what you're claiming was "the standard setting".

I mean, really, where are the settings you're talking about? Greyhawk? Eugh. Mystara? Triple eugh. Those are so far away from what I'm talking about that it's not even the same discussion.

There is a huge gap between "let's not hide the fantasy elements away" (which is sensible and attractive), and "Non-humans are automagically more interesting than humans or anything related to humans", which is PRECISELY what the quote is claiming.

 

[Piratecat]

My only question is, how big was the rock you were living under, and were you really under there from the whole period 1981 to 2008?

Because there is literally no other explanation for your utterly bizarre claim.

This, coming after several other warnings in other threads, just earned Ruin Explorer a 3-day suspension.

Talk to people, folks, don't insult them -- even when you don't agree.

 

[DandD]

The problem is, that your elf-ness, or your ability to shoot fire from your hands is not fantastic or special anymore if everyone can do it. And in a "90% are not human, but special races" world, that's the case.

And why is that bad if there are more fantasy races who play as much a role as humans do?

 

[Fenes]

And why is that bad if there are more fantasy races who play as much a role as humans do?

Because once something is common, it's not unique anymore, which means the whole "other races are cooler than humans" idea falls flat on its face. Most if not all fantasy races are just exagerated humans in funny suits. They work as a contrast to humans, but once you lose your baseline, they become the baseline.

A good example is Drizzt. As "a unique good drow rebelling against their society" character, he has some appeal. As "just another good drow", he loses most of it. Once you also add evil gold elves he becomes just another pointy eared ranger.

I think WotC's plan to make other races more common, and humans less dominant will be only resulting in diminishing what special appeal such races had.

It's like with all fads - once something is everywhere, it's not cool anymore. And I think Fantasy races deserve more than being handled like a fad.

 

[DandD]

Why does it have to be unique, to be good? Humans aren't unique, and still liked (which may rather be because they are a mechanically good race in D&D 3rd edition thanks to bonus feats and extra skill points). Other fantasy races don't have to be unique either. And who likes Drizzt anyway? He's a "Woe is me"-guy, basically the D&D-emo.

 

[Fenes]

Why does it have to be unique, to be good? Humans aren't unique, and still liked (which may rather be because they are a mechanically good race in D&D 3rd edition thanks to bonus feats and extra skill points). Other fantasy races don't have to be unique either. And who likes Drizzt anyway? He's a "Woe is me"-guy, basically the D&D-emo.

It does not have to be unique to be cool - which is why I prefer to play humans and half-elves, and did so in 2E times as well. But in my opinion, most of the appeal fantasy races have for a lot of players is - apart from special powers - the "I am a special snowflake" factor. And that will not work anymore, as we have seen with the "good drow characters", once they are everywhere.

Or to be more exact: I fear WotC mistook "this is cool because it is rare" for "this is cool because it is cool", and is now heading straight down to, as another poster put it "if one spoonful of pepper in my burger is great, then a whole mug of pepper in my burger will make it awesome!" territory.

 

[Vayden]

Because once something is common, it's not unique anymore, which means the whole "other races are cooler than humans" idea falls flat on its face. Most if not all fantasy races are just exagerated humans in funny suits. They work as a contrast to humans, but once you lose your baseline, they become the baseline.

. . . .

It's like with all fads - once something is everywhere, it's not cool anymore. And I think Fantasy races deserve more than being handled like a fad.

I respectfully disagree with your opinion. You enjoy a fantasy world that is predominantly human, with your extra fast elves and your cranky dwarves sprinkled in as special and different. I've played in/read a variation on that dozens of times. I'm bored and frustrated with that world, mainly because I know what to expect from it. This by no means is meant to say that you can't have a fantastic game in that world - the story is what ultimately makes the game, as many people have pointed out.

On the other hand, however awesome the story we're running at the moment is, I would enjoy myself more with that same story set in a fantasy world which doesn't live by the default rules of human history and base-line Tolkien fantasy assumptions. As a player, I want to be surprised by things - I want to go into a situation not knowing the rules. As a DM, I want to play "what if" and screw around with the world and bring the strangeness to the forefront. Why can't humans be strange and mysterious (eg the Taltos books by Brust)?

Anyway, I saw a lot of back-and-forth in this thread with the "end of humans" people being defensive and the "human baseline" folks assuming their base was impregnable - the point is, is it really? No one means to deny that you can have vibrant and interesting human-based worlds (however poorly W&M worded it, I'm pretty sure they're not denying that). The point is that we've done all of that before, and the challenge for 4E is to continue to evolve D&D - let's start creating some more vibrant worlds without the crutch of safe, familiar human dominance (Planescape's a good example).

We already have a ton of human-centric campaign settings that are available for people who like them (Greyhawk, FR, Ptolus, etc etc etc) - let's see if we can get some good ones without the human crutch - just because it's harder to do doesn't mean that it's wrong.

(Finally, in conclusion, it should be noted that I hate all humans and came *this* close to banning them entirely in my last campaign ).

 

[Fenes]

But humans can be mysterious. Humans are so diverse, even in fantasy campagaigns styled loosely after tolkien, that they can cover a lot of niches and cultures. From inuit to pygmi, from huns to romans, from chinese to aztecs, the only thing that defines what's new and what's old/boring is what culture one is used to/fed up with.

I just think, based upon the examples in races and classes we got so far, that WotC is working from a false assumption of "pointy ears means more cool", and lacks really original ideas for those new commonness for the races. So far, all I saw was just more humans in funny suits - right down to reptiles with boobs.

 

[DandD]

Pointy ears aren't cool. Scaly skins are, on the other hand. Reptiles with boobs is silly, that I grant you. But we all know that they only have boobs to appeal to male players, who can't imagine females not having boobs at all, anyway.

 

[Vayden]

Or to be more exact: I fear WotC mistook "this is cool because it is rare" for "this is cool because it is cool", and is now heading straight down to, as another poster put it "if one spoonful of pepper in my burger is great, then a whole mug of pepper in my burger will make it awesome!" territory.

Dwarves are cool because they are cool. You could have an all-dwarf party and it would rock. Tieflings are cool partly because they're cool and partly because they're rare - they definitely have a little emo-drizzt thing going. Dragonborn weren't cool until they became a race of honor-bound mercenaries - now they're pretty damn cool. Halflings are cool. Hobbits aren't cool. (Halfling or gnome centered societies are tough to pull off because everyone else has to bend over all the time. That's why it's good that halflings are the gypsies.) Elves are not cool. An all-elf party would probably quit adventuring and just do all-nude performances of "Silmarillion the Musical" all day. Humans can be cool but are usually boring. Half-elves are the least cool, because they combine the worst aspects of Elves (poncy), Humans (boring), and Tieflings (emo).

All of the above are strictly my personal opinion, not anything objective. The point is that things aren't always good because they're rare - sometimes they're just good. Instead of Dragonborn being a dash of pepper on your burger, maybe Dragonborn are the delicious all-beef patty - and while having two slabs of beef may be fattening, it certainly doesn't make the burger taste bad.