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Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 and 3 Rules, Pacing, Non-RPGs, and G

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs

For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.


“Old School Games have a lot of failure, more mediocre outcomes... and the brilliant stroke that suddenly feels astonishing because there is something there to contrast it with. New School Games are grey goo.” Jeffro

Last time I talked about some differences between “Old School” and newer approaches to RPGs, especially related to story. Here are some more.
[h=3]Rules[/h] The difference in “schools” is not about rules. Rules are not sacred, nor do they fit for every person. I think about rules in terms of game design. Occasionally choices designers make in games are arbitrary, one is as good as another. Some of these choices, the game designer(s) might want to change after publication, if they could. And over time, a game designer might make different choices for rules simply because tastes/trends change. For these reasons it makes no sense, to me, to adhere strictly to every rule in an RPG set.

Jeffro Johnson goes back to rules before AD&D (first edition as we tend to call it), or rules intended to substitute, such as Moldvay-B/X-Basic rules. So Jeffro says thieves must have d4 for hit points, because the rules he loves specify that.

I’m much more willing to vary from the original rules in order to make the game better (from my point of view, of course), so my thieves/rogues have d6s, can use bows (Robin Hood), and vary in other ways from the original rules. My 1e clerics can choose one of three types of sharp weapons (two-handers, one-handed swords, bow and arrow) and use those weapons as well as the blunt ones - because it’s better for the game. They can memorize twice as many spells as they can cast. And so on.

But a GM can make his game Old or New regardless of the actual rules. Some rules make it easier to tell stories (e.g. FATE). Simpler rulesets in general give the GM more freedom to tell stories, as there are fewer rules to get in the way of the story, and likely less “rules lawyering”.
[h=3]GM Role[/h] In terms of the two major conceptions of the GM’s role, the GM as rules arbiter and the GM as a sort of god, which works better for the storytelling that’s part of New School? I think rules arbiter is much less effective, as the rules can get in the way of the story. GM as rules arbiter tends to go with long rulesets (which more likely need an arbiter), and rules-heavy games get in the way of story-telling. Rules-light games ought to be better for GM storytelling. Players who don’t want the GM to control the story may prefer rules-heavy RPGs. These are tendencies, of course, not certainties, and likely there are counterexamples.
[h=3]Pacing[/h] Pacing is a big part of the difference between the two extremes. Good pacing (in novel and film terms) calls for alternating lows and highs, to make the highs that much more effective.

Old School recognizes that there will be not-very-exciting or even unpleasant/horrific adventures, to go with super-exciting and terrifically rewarding adventures. New School “evens it out”, ensuring that nothing will be unpleasant but also effectively ensuring that nothing will be terrific – because you can’t fail. “Loot drops” are boring when every monster has a loot drop. Boatloads of treasure become boring when you always get boatloads of treasure. “No one ever gets in serious trouble” is boring. In other words, the New abandons good pacing in favor of enabling “no negative consequences” or just “no losses”. You can certainly do that, but it sounds tedious to me.
[h=3]Non-RPGs, too[/h] This Old/New dichotomy can be seen clearly in board and card games as well. Such games have moved away from the traditional direct competition, and from high levels of player interaction, to parallel competitions that are usually puzzles (i.e., have always-correct solutions) rather than games (which do not have such solutions). Each player pursues his own puzzle down one of the "Multiple Paths to Victory," that is, following one of several always-correct solutions provided by the designer.

"As an Action RPG, the best thing about Torchlight II is the way loot, skill choices, and chance bubble over into a fountain of light and treasure at the whiff of a right-click, every single time, for as long as you can keep going." PC Gamer magazine, 2012

We see the difference in video games, too, but for commercial reasons those games have gone far into the New. To begin with, computers lend themselves to avatar-based "experiences" (forms of story) rather than games. Also, computer games of all types are far into reward (or at least, lack of negative consequences), having left consequence (Old School) behind some time ago. In other words, you’re rewarded for playing while not having to worry/take responsibility for the consequences of your own actions. (There are exceptions of course.) In the extreme, players will blame the game if they don’t succeed. If you make a free to play video game (a very common type now), practically speaking you MUST make it easy and positive so that players will stick around long enough to decide to provide you with some revenue via in-game micro-transactions.

(Editor's Note: We decided to add in Lew's third article, below, so it puts all of his points in context; please see my comment below).

Here are some Old/New School differences in actual gameplay.
[h=3]Strategy Over Tactics[/h] Military strategy (what you do before battle is joined) is de-emphasized in opposite-of-old-school games. Why?

  • Good strategy requires planning; tactics can become standardized, rule of thumb, easier
  • If the GM is telling a story, he or she wants players to follow the script, not devise their own ways of doing things overall (which is what strategy is all about)
Tactical games, on the other hand, are all about immediate fighting, what 4th edition D&D was built for, what many computer RPGs are built for because computers are at their best in tactics and worst in strategy.
[h=3]Hand-Holding[/h] Old School games are often about exploration, about finding/identifying the objectives. And recognizing when something about a location/opponent makes it too dangerous to take on right now.

Something like a secret door becomes a “dirty GM trick” instead of a challenge for the dungeon-delving skills of the party. “New” games are about being guided by the game (GM) to where the fight is, then fighting, then getting the loot. (You recognize the description of typical computer RPGs, especially MMO RPGs?)

In other words, the GM “holds the hands” of the players, guiding them rather than leaving them to their own devices. Every GM does this on occasion, but it’s the norm in the extreme of New School.
[h=3]What’s Important in Play?[/h] In Old School, it’s the success of the party that counts, much more than the success of the individual. This is a “wartime” attitude now quite uncommon in the USA, but common amongst the Baby Boomer wargamers who originated RPGs. In the extremes of the newer school, it’s the individual that counts (e.g. as expressed in “All About Me” RPGs), not the group. This makes a huge difference in how people play the game.
[h=3]Sport or War?[/h] I talked about this in an earlier column (RPG Combat: Sport or War?). To summarize, in war everything is fair, and stratagems – “a plan or scheme, especially one used to outwit an opponent” - are the ideal. If you get in a fair fight, you’ve screwed up: fair fights are for suckers. That style puts a premium on intelligence-gathering and on strategy. Combat as sport looks for a fair fight that the players will just barely manage to win, often as managed by the GM. Combat as War is less heroic, but it’s a lot more practical from the adventurer’s point of view. And for me, a lot more believable. If a fight is truly fair, you’re going to lose 50% of the time, in the long run. That’s not survivable.
[h=3]Nuance[/h] There are lots of “in-betweens”, of course:

  • What about a campaign where the party can suffer a total or near wipeout, but someone has left a wish with a reliable soul who can wish away the disaster. They can fail (lose), but most or all of them will survive.
  • What about the “All About Me” style I wrote about recently? Usually, there is no possibility of failure, but a GM could put a little failure into the equation if they wished.
  • What about the campaign where everyone knows their character is doomed to die, likely before reaching (in AD&D terms) 10th or 11th level? Then glory (and a glorious death) often becomes the objective.
  • What about the campaign where characters normally survive, but when someone does something egregiously stupid or foolish, the character can die?
  • You can hand-hold players to the point of combat, and still make that combat deadly.
RPGs can accommodate all kinds of tastes. But we don’t have to like every kind, do we?

This article was contributed by Lewis Pulsipher (lewpuls) as part of EN World's Columnist (ENWC) program. You can follow Lew on his web site and his Udemy course landing page. If you enjoy the daily news and articles from EN World, please consider contributing to our Patreon!
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio
You were responding to @Aldarc,
You need to establish how layout relates to a style of play. How does chapter arrangement relate to style of play? How does chart design relate to style of play? Take the Blades in the Dark manual, it's concise, well laid out in understandable fashion, and includes charts and reference material at the back of the book, well organized and grouped. Is this OS? No, it very much is not.
:|

Placement of tables has become an expectation in the OR community. Doesn't mean it doesn't occur elsewhere. I haven't played Blades in the Dark, so can't really comment on it specifically. What I can say is it has become the standard in the OSR to make sure your setting material and rules have short to the point entries so they are easy to use in play. When I look at more mainstream books (which remember, this is what I was talking about before when I said new school), this seems to be less of a concern. There are other niche styles that also seem to value this. And I've also noticed a lot of OSR stuff getting picked up at places like Story-Games.com, so don't know how much of that is a factor. My impression when I look at more narratively driven games is they also live concise writing, but, and this could be wrong as my experience playing them is more limited than people who play them regularly, that the emphasis is often more of an aesthetic one. One of the things that impresses me about narrative games is the art style, layout and presentation. It is all very appealing. I didn't assume there was as much of a utilitarian reason for that as in the OSR, but if it is, I'd be interested to know what your thoughts are there (i.e. what functions are important in play in that respect).

All you have to do is read a few OSR blogs to encounter advice around tables and brevity. These are things that repeatedly get mentioned. So I think they are pretty important features of the play style.
 
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Fine, but if you got 'idiot' from my posts, that's on you. I don't think you're an idiot, I just think your incorrect and unknowledgable about NS games. Also, that layout and good DMing are not inimical to either playstyle.

We are just going to have to disagree on certain things. I do think layout and play style often go hand in hand. Especially when gaming communities are so blog driven. Publishers in the OSR are small enough and keyed in enough to this stuff, that it impacts actual layout. I can personally attest to that. And it is a reflection of the needs of people in the style at the table. They want brief descriptions of setting locations that are easy to parse in play and they want tables grouped together so they are easy to sort through. And again, doesn't mean other people don't care about these things. There is just a heavy emphasis on it in the OSR.

Again, I never said good GMing was a part of any play style. I said optimism about peoples abilities to GM using rulings was a key attitude of OSR. And that a lot of the people I have encountered who were critical of OSR, seemed more skeptical of GM authority.
 

Yes, that never happens in NS games. :|

I never said it didn't. I am just pointing out that POD state of the hobby makes it a lot easier for things like layout and brevity concerns expressed on a blog to be picked up by people publishing in the style. I don't know why this particular point is so controversial for you. I can certainly understand your resistance to some of the other points. But honestly these are two points I see constantly hammered in OSR discussions. Way more than I see elsewhere.
 

Fine, but if you got 'idiot' from my posts, that's on you. I don't think you're an idiot, I just think your incorrect and unknowledgable about NS games. Also, that layout and good DMing are not inimical to either playstyle.

Keep in mind, we were using entirely different definitions of New School, so I thought you were accusing me of not having knowledge of games I play on a regular basis.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Then why is the challenge being constructed this way?
Maybe the DM has branching story ideas or adventure hooks in mind e.g. if they happen to find the hidden document that shows the Baron is an enemy spy that might lead to a whole different story or focus, and if not they'll just keep investigating the disappearance of his son like they were already doing. The DM has placed the document there but isn't going to lead the party to it; if they find it, great, and if they don't find it, also great.

(1) This seems like a feature and not a bug.
No, it's a bug. Achievement of goals (which is almost always in the 'fluff' realm) is brought about by successful completion of actions (using 'crunch' if mechanical success-failure determination is needed), which means the game mechanics should leave the goals part to take care of itself in the fiction and not look any further than the actual actions

(2) Nothing precludes you from running it as "two (or more) discrete rolls" in Fate. The GM has a tremendous amount of latitude here.
Nothing precludes anything in the end, but what does the system encourage or discourage? If the GM has to fight the system in order to drill down to more granular resolution levels (or in order to ignore goals as a part of the mechanics) then I posit that's a system failure.

Or just one: "can I climb over the wall with the gold?" Or maybe five: Can the PC reach the top? Can the PC climb quick enough? Can the PC climb without being detected? Can the PC keep the gold in the process? Can the PC keep their shoes? You end up making an arbitrary amount of rolls based upon what you think is transpiring in the fiction. And if one roll can accomplish the same result as many while adding clear stakes, then why not streamline things a bit?
Because there's so many situations where a single failure can lead to many different outcomes, locking in the results of failure just makes no sense. Even the fairly simple example we're using - trying to climb a wall quietly while burdened by a bag o' gold - has three obvious variables: the climb itself, the noise level, and retention of the gold; along with the fourth less-obvious variable of whether anyone notices in any case.

I'd personally rather break this down into two or three separate player-side determinations (the noise, the climb, and gold retention if the climb goes badly) and one DM-side determination (does anyone notice, as affected by the player-side results). And if this takes an extra moment or two at the table, I don't care.

But as a GM you may want, if not demand, discrete rolls from the player to put on pants, make coffee, feed the cat, lay out bowl, pour cereal, pour milk, check to eat said cereal, clean dishes, and then find the car keys. But other GMs may simply want a single roll for "getting ready in the morning" or opt for no roll at all.
An overkill example, and as none of those actions are likely being done under duress (well, except for feeding the cat: failing that one can and will have dire consequences!) there's obviously no roll.

But someone trying to steal a bag of gold out from under the King's nose and whose life may be forfeit if caught - yeah, that's duress. Rolls all around.

Why should the player have a choice if ":):):):) happens" and they lose the gold through their own bungled climbing as per (a) or (c)? Doesn't that break the simulationism of chance? You don't get a choice if you lose gold, you just do? :confused:
The player isn't given any chance to make a choice as to what to do at the point her PC realizes she's not going to make it up the wall. Realistically she could drop the gold and try to keep climbing, or try to gracefully jump back down with the gold and carry on from there, or plow ahead regardless and hope to get out with some of the gold, or whatever. The GM also hamstrings herself: by declaring that even on failure the PC is going to get up the wall and escape she's taken both falling and capture off the table

Why is it necessarily bad that falling has been taken off the table when the fiction establishes that the character would not have necessarily needed to roll for climbing the wall to begin with under other circumstances? You clearly want falling to be perpetually on the table. That's fine. But that is not the problem that you imagine it to be. That is a matter of preference.
The PC can easily make the climb unburdened, but by choosing to try it when burdened she's made it more difficult for herself and thus opened up failure as a possibility. To me that puts all the usual consequence-of-failure options on the table, along with some others due to the added variable of the bag of gold.

Also, by declaring the consequence of failure as merely being the loss of the gold the DM has arbitrarily much reduced the risk involved to the PC.

But I would also note that the noise factor was never under consideration in the original scenario, though it can be easily added: Overcome Stealth check or Create an Advantage with Stealth.* Furthermore, spilling some of the gold was already baked into the dice resolution system of Fate: ties. If you roll the same as your opposition, then you tie. This results in either you getting what you want with a minor cost or you getting a lesser version. It seems like spilling some of the gold doesn't so much fall into that category as much it folds and lays itself gently into that category.
As one possible option of many, yes it does; others include being noticed by a passer-by outside the wall, or dropping something else that could maybe later be used as evidence to tie the crime to you, or injuring yourself somehow in the process, or ... :)

I think there is a lot getting in the way here. For starters, I'm unsure what you mean by a "Yes" or "Yes, but..." model. Secondly, as a principle fail forward is neutral about direction.
As a principle yes, but in practice?

By what reasonable metric? This article would scarcely pass as a sixth grade writing assignment.
The article tries to do two things. It's sort-of succeeded in one (getting its point across) and certainly succeeded in the other (generating discussion). Beyond that, who cares? :)
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
I feel like there has been some confusion between Old School and the OSR movement....which, while certainly connected, are different things. Or, at least, they can be considered such if "Old School" means older games, particularly early D&D and games of that era.

The OSR is a more recent movement which does tend to have very strong focus on layout, readability, and usability at the table. The idea is to take the core Old School game and make it function more smoothly, and make the GM's job easier.

So the layout of the 1E Player's Handbook (Old School) compared to something like Hot Springs Island or Vornheim (OSR) are very different things. Gygax was (seemingly :) ) not very concerned with readability of his rule book, but the OSR folks tend to be very much concerned with that.

I don't think that saying the OSR has a strong focus on Layout means that New School cannot also focus on that. As mentioned, Blades in the Dark has a very clear and sleek layout, but I don't think anyone would consider it an OSR book by any stretch. But I think John Harper is very aware of what the OSR movement is, and I imagine he knows a good idea when he sees it.

Again, the discussion can get difficult if someone says something positive about one school or the other, folks on the "opposite side" assume it's a knock on their school of choice. Saying that designers in the OSR movement are focused on layout doesn't mean that designers in New School are not.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I think that you make some valid distinctions among different editions of D&D. I just don’t think that they have much to do with pacing.

Pacing is a variable thing. Different games have different methods of pacing, or different mechanics that help determine pacing. And of course the DM and players are always involved in a game’s pacing.

But your peaks and valleys point is more about high points of action and low points of action. And although this may seem to relate to pacing, I don’t think the point you’re making really does.

Your contrasting the low points with the high, saying that the contrast itself lends the peaks more meaning. But despite understanding why you might say that, I don’t know how relevant it is. The high points of my game are just as enjoyable. They don’t lose anything by having fewer boring stretches.

If anything, making the lulls more bearable just means that, arguably, the game is overall more enjoyable.
As a game, quite likely. But - and not knowing your specific game I can't say whether this applies to your own situation or not - often the lulls or valleys are caused by realism rearing its ugly head: you have to wait three days for some wounds to heal up enough to keep going, or you're stumped by a maze or riddle, or your character got killed and there's no reasonable way in the fiction to either revive it or bring in a new one, or you have to explore the place inch by inch because of all the traps; and mitigation of the lulls and valleys comes at direct cost of this sort of realism. I'm not willing to pay that cost.

Each edition plays a bit different, and each has its pros and cons. But with the possible exception of 4E, the play experience is relatively the same. They’re all still D&D, after all.

Now, I know that may seem crazy to you, but play a game of Blades in the Dark or Tales From the Loop and then you’ll see how different a game can be.
From some aspects pretty much all TTRPGs are the same: you generate a character, give it a personality, and role-play that personality as it interacts with the other PCs and the surrounding world.

But from other aspects they're all different, including D&D's various editions, and the differences lie in the mechanics of play and how much they either help or hinder the above in the eyes of the player. In older D&D, for example, a lot of the resolution mechanics stayed DM-side where in newer D&D they've gone player-side. Another example: in 3e (and 4e and 5e, in different ways) there were a lot more PC-based mechanics to worry about including feats, skills, etc. that the older versions didn't have.

If you look at the treasure types, you’ll see they were exactly what you describe. And you say that 1E had expectations about what manner of gear was appropriate for a level. I don’t think that taking those assumptions and then having a later edition put them in a chart meant as a reference is much of a point.

Treasure is important to every edition of D&D. If anything, I’d say it’s more important in older editions as the vast amount of character improvement was through gear.
I'm not saying it isn't important...not in the least! But I am saying that as written it has certainly come to feel much more 'prepackaged' as the editions have gone on, probably because the designers have realized its importance and tried to rein it in rather than just saying anything goes within very broad guidelines and leaving it for each DM to sort out for herself.

Well that’s how one Old School edition worked. You played by different rules or you homebrewed your own...I can’t comment on that.
Yeah, pretty much our whole system is homebrewed now, though still vaguely recognizable as 1e.
 

No, it's a bug. Achievement of goals (which is almost always in the 'fluff' realm) is brought about by successful completion of actions (using 'crunch' if mechanical success-failure determination is needed), which means the game mechanics should leave the goals part to take care of itself in the fiction and not look any further than the actual actions
Half the time I attempt anything in an RPG, I have no idea what my goal is. If I try something, it's because I want to know what happens.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Again, for the record, here are the general traits I see as OS and NS -- these are tendencies, not definitional.

OS:
* DM has exclusive control of the fictional setting and positioning, outside of specific and limited powers usually reserved for magic.
* action resolution is atomic, ie you resolve action declarations as independent rather than as part of an overall goal (climbing the wall stealthily requires both climb checks and stealth checks).
* the world is the primary focus -- characters inhabit an already built world

NS
* players share some control over fictional setting and positioning
* action resolution is goal oriented, and seeks to resolve at a gross rather than granular level
* character is the primary focus -- characters define the world as they move through it

As you can see above, some games borrow back and forth. But, 1e fits OS pretty well, while something like Blades in the Dark or FATE occupy the NS pretty well.
That's not a bad start. The one major thing I'd add, based on what I've read here, is this:

OS:
* generally runs at a slower pace, both in the run of play and in areas such as character advancement

NS:
* play is generally at a faster pace, both in the run of play and in areas such as character advancement
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I think this conversation is challenging because clearly we are all walking around with a very different sense of the boundaries between old school, new school and other styles.

I think it is challenging for historical, tribal reasons. This is a Dichotomy Conflict (the 3e-4e Edition Wars were another such conflict), and in these, one side or another tends to lay claim to "good" behaviors, and assert the other side doesn't have them. Historically, this has happened a lot, and if you are going to enter the discussion, it is *really* helpful to remember that.

If you call out a thing that is important to, or often found in, Old School play, that's fine. However, if it isn't *particular* to Old School play, then it isn't telling us much for this discussion - it does not elucidate anything special about the style, *and* it can easily look like the toxic behavior historically seen. So...

Constructive suggestion - if you are not aware of how many of the games in the class work, don't just make assertions. Couple them with questions. F'rex:

"I have noted that a lot of OS discussions include discussion faith in GM abilities as a major point. What role does this take in New School play?"

Because, in my memory of history that "faith in GM abilities," isn't tied to school. It is tied to Edition Wars. Specifically, it arose as a criticism of 3e, specifically due to its comprehensive rules and presentation of a formulae for everything down to encounter creation, and later extended to 4e which had different structure, but also tried to be comprehensive. The designers have since said these were attempts to reach a goal they thought was important to players - ensuring consistency of play across tables. However, it got interpreted by some as a decision to take the choices away from the GM, because the GM was not trusted. This was, of course, countered with stories that GM had a tendency to be self-aggrandizing and abusive, and maybe folks who felt a strong need to keep power maybe shouldn't be trusted with it... and the arguments got toxic.

But, most other games that are often labelled 'New School' don't have rules that are comprehensive, and very specifically have aspects that call for a lot of GM judgement in run-time play. The whole "don't trust the GM" thing *just doesn't exist* in these games. Folks who were sore about design changes assigned these traits to the style, but they aren't actually common.

And, if you couple with questions, that gives a frame for digging around and seeing what we can find are common to one genre of game or another.
 
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