Worlds of Design: Doing it All Over Again

Do overs are common in video games. But can they work in role-playing games?

How often has your group declared a "do over" for a game?


Do overs are common in video games. But can they work in role-playing games?

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Do Overs in TV & Film​

I recently watched a featurette on the excellent TV show “Elementary” (Sherlock Holmes in modern day, Dr. Watson a woman). They mentioned that inexperienced directors sometimes shoot too many takes. What are those directors looking for?

Consider how professional actors do things in TV and film. They are used to multiple takes. During the Lord of the Rings movie shooting, Ian Holm (Bilbo) taught Ian McKellan (then a famous stage actor) to do the scene differently each time, so the director could choose the one he preferred. Evidently, it isn’t always done this way. Sylvester Stallone was surprised that Jean Claude Van Damme (evidently a better actor than he’s often given credit for) did a scene very differently each take in Expendables 2.

Directors are effectively doing the scene over and over to find the best result. A director who works quickly, like Clint Eastwood, does fewer takes than most, but everyone does multiple takes. Yet multiple takes - do-overs - aren’t available on stage or in writing.

Do Overs in Board and Card Games​

Go back far enough in history and prehistory, and the only games in existence were athletic events, and board games. There were no do-overs there! (Yes, you can play a board game again, or run a race again, but that’s not a do-over, that’s playing another time starting from scratch.) When playing cards became durable enough to become widespread, there were still no do-overs. And this continued until very recently.

Do Overs in Video Games​

Now we have video games with their much greater influence than tabletop games, in numbers of players and time spent playing. I polled two college tabletop game clubs some years ago, and found that even those club members played video games more than they played tabletop games. In particular, video RPGs are much bigger than tabletop RPGs. For example, video RPG Skyrim alone has sold far more (in $$$) than all US tabletop RPG sales for more than a dozen years.

Going back to saved games is the norm in video game play. So it’s unsurprising that the idea of do-overs has become more common in tabletop RPGs as the influence of video games (and TV/films, for that matter) has increased.

This comes back to that major dichotomy of “RPG as game” vs “RPG as storytelling mechanism.” In film, novels, plays, the auteur (usually the author, in movies the director) can control what happens; not so in games. So in order to give the auteur more control, you must move away from the ways games do things, to something quite different.

Do Overs in D&D​

There are in-game and out-of-game ways a game can rewind itself. In game, divine intervention or powerful magic might reset events. I recall early D&D where a wish was used only to wish away the fatal result of an entire adventure. Yet even if a wish was used, some GMs (including me) didn’t allow players to play the adventure over again, because there was no way to make the players forget what had happened the first time. Time travel can have a similar effect.

But it’s also possible that sometimes the game doesn’t work out such that players and game master may want to throw it out and start over. The problem is that any experiences during a do over may be new to the characters, but it’s not new to the players, so there’s no easy way to separate the experience out. This is not to say the game might play out differently, but the end result is that even when replaying, there’s still some player knowledge of how things turned out previously.

And that’s because role-playing games are dynamic creations created by a group. Save game and respawn are major reasons most video games are really puzzles, not games, but that's a topic for another article.

Your turn: Our poll is an imprecise attempt to ask how much you allow rewinds in your games. I'm sure you can be much more specific if you wish.
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

J.Quondam

CR 1/8
"Never" has it actually happened IME.
And only "once in a blue moon" could I even imagine it happening, in the case of an egregiously bad, anti-RAW ruling by the DM.


* I'm talking about big, story-changing events. Little do-overs on specific rolls or whatnot have occurred, especially when someone is learning some part of the game system or setting.
 

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Dire Bare

Legend
Blue moon for me as it would destroy player agency by wiping out consequences. If you control your choices and the outcomes, how can it be meaningful?
For me, D&D isn't about "consequences", but rather having fun and telling a collaborative story.

If a PC makes a choice that ends up with a negative consequence . . . . that's part of the story! Obviously, some players fun is lessened as they struggle to separate what happens to their characters from what happens to them, but ideally redo's shouldn't be necessary in most cases.

But . . . . if groups struggle with applying the game rules correctly and want a redo, why not? If there is a player making problematic choices, not for the adventuring party so much as for the player group at the table . . . that might deserve a redo.

For me, redo's are rare, but need to be considered on a case-by-case basis. Is the "problem" needing a redo causing some drama or lessening our fun? Then I'll likely make it happen.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
Yet multiple takes - do-overs - aren’t available on stage or in writing.
On the stage, during a live performance, no. But in rehearsals, they often stop and start over when someone flubs a line. Do-overs until you don’t need do-overs.

As for writing…yeah. Do-overs galore. Infinite do-overs, really. Writing, re-writing, then editing one’s own work, then submitting it, and having it edited by someone else. The do-overs only stop when it’s published. Then you can still revise and change things for the next printing.
 

Dire Bare

Legend
Reading through this thread has given me an idea for a campaign . . . .

Groundhog Day D&D! The players keep repeating the same brutal day over and over again, and must struggle to find a way to break the time-loop and go on with their lives!
 

J.Quondam

CR 1/8
Reading through this thread has given me an idea for a campaign . . . .

Groundhog Day D&D! The players keep repeating the same brutal day over and over again, and must struggle to find a way to break the time-loop and go on with their lives!
To be truly punishing, make it an ever-repeating day of nothing but shopping & haggling.
 

Jer

Legend
Supporter
Twice that I can remember in all my years of DMing. Once involved time travel shenanigans and I allowed a full back-to-the-future 2 style "do over" where the PCs were sneaking around in the background of their previous actions trying to not cause a paradox. (Turns out they were the ones who stole the artifact they were looking for out from under their own noses - who knew?)

The second was at some point during 3e when we had a TPK because I misjudged the challenge of a mid-level threat waaay too much. I was able to pull out an "it was all a nightmare sent by the big bad" with the table and I reworked the encounter into something different for their actual encounter.
 


Vaalingrade

Legend
Only had to reset once. One player, who we later found out was experiencing a medication interaction set off a chain of events that absolutely instigated a fight with a noble's security force in their house after sabotaging the party in a way that rendered everyone incapable of mounting much defense as a 'joke'.

Ended the session there to figure out just how to do the usual 'escape prison' scenario but interesting, then got a text the next day apologizing and explaining and explaining the circumstances.

Next session, the party witnesses physics fill its underpants, then wake up that morning before the situation started. They get back to that dinner. Physics breaks again. They wake up that morning. Welcome to a groundhogs day plot.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Blue moon here as well - other than immediate corrections of a mis-ruling I can only think of such things occurring twice; and both instances were largely player-driven.

One was a small-scale event: a character fumbled in melee and broke a very nice magic sword, and the resulting wild magic surge caused all kinds of mess. The next words out of the player's (i.e. PC's) mouth were "Damn, I wish that hadn't happened!"; and as fate would have it that particular PC had unknowingly picked up a hidden wish ages earlier (the ink on the note-to-self on my DM screen was faded, that's how old it was!) and so sure enough, it didn't happen. Everything got reset to the point where the PC was winding up for the swing on which he'd previously fumbled, and we restarted from there.

The other was much bigger. A party unexpectedly gained access to a time-travel device then decided to use it to go back and try to correct a major mistake they'd made in the past (they'd failed to prevent the overthrow of a throne). What resulted was very much like the end stage of the third Harry Potter, where the characters are running around trying to stay out of their own way yet still cause the changes they want; so not so much a direct replay of that adventure but a revisit to it, and in the end it worked out in their favour.
 

"Groundhog Day D&D! The players keep repeating the same brutal day over and over again, and must struggle to find a way to break the time-loop and go on with their lives!"

This is actually the ideal way to play "Tomb of Horrors".
 

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