Worried that the mistakes of the past are being repeated...

barsoomcore said:
Sorry, what's the question? I mean, what's the question that didn't just get answered?

This is what I was responding to:
earlier barsoomcore said:
Huh? Does WotC have some secret ingredient that no other company in the world has? If one company can make the "D&D" brand work for them, why couldn't another? There's nothing magic about WotC as far as I know -- I don't see any reason why some other company would necessarily have to provide lower levels of support and production.

Obviously, a smaller company couldn't. You'll note that nowhere did I say a smaller company would.

You said "some other company". If you agree that a smaller company would provide a lower level of support and production, could you provide me an example of a company that could, as per your earlier quote?

But you seem to deduce from that the notion that if WotC does a bad job selling their product, the industry is doomed.

No, here is what I said:
Dr. Harry said:
I don't think that the hobby would end, but I think that it would shrink dramatically at the lower level of support and production another company would be able to give it.

WotC publishes large numbers of books in large print runs because they make money doing so. If they were not doing so, would people just, you know, buy less RPG books? I hardly think so. They'd buy OTHER RPG books.

Where would they buy them? D&D (and gaming) has grown because of the increased visibilty of sales in bookstores. I'm willing to forgo bookstore discounts to support my friendly local game store, but I think that the hobby would shrink in the same way that the comic industry sank when comics went almost entirely to specialty stores. (This is just a rough comparison; there were a lot of things the comics industry was doing wrong.)

These things happen in all industries, in all markets. I don't believe RPGs are special. The level of demand can fluctuate, but the demand exists, and if one company won't take advantage of it, another will. I don't think there's anything very complicated or controversial about this idea.

We might be having a different conversation if you see anyone claiming that RPG's are special; they are a fairly typical small, luxury industry with one big fish. If that fish were to roll over dead, the amount of RPG stuff being printed (not necessarily produced) would shrink dramatically, and I would expect RPG market access to shrink with it.
 

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Making Money

Problem is that it's tough to make money by not offering more content. WoTC's probable thinking, and it's pretty reasonable, is that it's a lot easier to sell new content to the RPG base than it is to expand the base. And they know they can execute on making books - and they know they can't execute in other areas, like developing software. I don't think they made a lot of money with adventures (which is unfortunate.)

I think trying to make money in the RPG industry has got to be brutally tough...
 

The entire D&D D20 system is bloated with stacks and stacks of material, some good, some bad, some useful, some not. Regardless what WoTC is pushing out their door, there is tons of other stuff out there right now, so the question becomes what is WoTC putting out that is new or different that can be useful to a game. At this point I could probably find about 3 or 4 D20 equipment guids, at least 3 different magic and psionic systems, and there are who knows how many settings out there. At this point WoTC can only put out "useful" material that they kept at their own material such as mind flayers and beholders ( which they already did this book ), and material that can offer new feats, classes, monsters, and maybe even some rules, but eventually this well is going to run dry.

Its actually really simple, how many books do you own and how many books do you actually use in your campaign? I bet you will find that most people own many more books than they use, and that many of them will be slow to buy any new materials in the future. I know personally this is my stance on the subject, the lost WoTC product I bought was the last complete book, and right now I have no plans to buy any more, I have no need for them.

My working WoTC arsenal includes the 3 core books and the complete books (including psionics), oriental adventures (for when I'm running that campaign), book of vile darkness and thats it. Now I do own the planes book and the dieties books, but I mainly bought these just to read and skim for ideas, but these books never make it to my game table. As for D20 products from other publishers I use the Tome of Horrors I & II as well as Poisoncraft (a great supplement for anyone wanting to use poison in their games) and the Creatures Collection, Legend of the Samurai, Rokugan, and Creatures of Rokugan.

I don't really plan on adding to the collection unless some really good monster books make themselves present. As for optional rules, 3rd party prestige and class books, spell books, etc. I don't use them, they only seem to gum up the works and many prestige classes are not very well balanced. Optional rules throw off balance in most situations, though we do have house rules of course, and I find that most of our house rules are similar to the optional rules books, so they will never get used or purchased.

I know I'm not speaking for everyone here, as I know there are book junkies out there that have to have all the books, not that its a bad thing, to each his own, but its just not me. So I would say that WoTC will continue to put out books as long as people are buying them, and seeing that WoTC keeps pushing out material, I would say someone somewhere is buying the latest and greatest from WoTC and turning another dollar. When WoTC starts seeing a decline in new book sales I would say they will probably do one of two things, either slow down the amount of material they put out or stop completely, relying on the continued sales of existing works. Be warned though, when they stop making new books, don't look for them to just stop publishing. WoTC like any other successful company will look to continue and further the success of a franchise like D&D, and you can bet, whether you like to admit it or not, there will be a 4th edition when this happens, and this will be an attempt to recreate the success of 3rd edtion, by getting new younger gamers interested and rekindling the need to adventure for older games who may have tired of 3rd edition.

Taking this into consideration I would be really concerned when or if a 4th edition comes out, that type of thing could be a franchise maker or breaker, but until then I would think WoTC is fairly stable considering that pnp D&D is not their only game system nor is it their only way to seek profits, don't forget about D&D Online, and other WoTC titles in the digital world.
 

Diremede said:
...

I don't really plan on adding to the collection unless some really good monster books make themselves present. As for optional rules, 3rd party prestige and class books, spell books, etc. I don't use them, they only seem to gum up the works and many prestige classes are not very well balanced. Optional rules throw off balance in most situations, though we do have house rules of course, and I find that most of our house rules are similar to the optional rules books, so they will never get used or purchased.

I know I'm not speaking for everyone here, as I know there are book junkies out there ...

It's not so much "book junkies" that are driving the WotC market, but what you stated right here. Except for books that hit a specific niche, you won't be buying many/any more. A lot of us are in that boat, but it is what we consider a good hook that is different. I didn't get the monster-theme books, or the race books, and I think I have way more than enough monsters, but I bought the enviroment books.

Neither one of us are the whole market, but not all of us need to buy the new book in order for it to be profitable to produce (I hope :) ).

Therefore, WotC's current strategy of making several expansion lines that might appeal to different subsets is good, and I am glad for it even if I only buy one out of every ten, because it delays the day when WotC will feel the need to release 4E in order to get an influx of new cash, and the current edition is still supported.

I hope.

Harry
 

Dr. Harry said:
Where would they buy them? D&D (and gaming) has grown because of the increased visibilty of sales in bookstores. I'm willing to forgo bookstore discounts to support my friendly local game store, but I think that the hobby would shrink in the same way that the comic industry sank when comics went almost entirely to specialty stores. (This is just a rough comparison; there were a lot of things the comics industry was doing wrong.)
I agree with Dr. Harry here: WOTC has the lion's share of the bookstore distribution channel. I know, I hunt for third-party books all the time with limited success. Borders has almost exclusively WOTC and White Wolf, with the occasional Green Ronin stuff thrown in.

My experience with Monkey God's demise has taught me this: quality, originality, etc. only gets you so far. The rest is distribution.

Exactly how a distribution channel is established is a complete mystery to me, though I have some theories. It seems largely to do with access, personal contacts, and the ability to consistently prove your product will sell. Bookstores aren't interested in hearing how great your campaign setting is. They're not going to risk shelf-space on a product that doesn't sell.

The theory that there's all this D20 stuff floating around for consumers to pick up stems from the biased perspective of savvy Internet purchasers. Not everyone knows to look for gaming material online, where a D20 book has the same shot at being purchased as any WOTC book. This is why Sword & Sorcery Studios distributes so much material on behalf of other companies (e.g., Necromancer Games). In essence, they're leveraging White Wolf's distribution muscle to bookstores.

One does not just jump into WOTC's shoes. There are commitments, including the risk of having all your material pulled off the shelf if it doesn't sell and RETURNED TO YOU, that smaller companies just couldn't feasibly make.
 

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