Worshipping an ideal.

Ysgarran

Registered User
One of the people I play with wants to worship an 'ideal'. Basically he wants to min/max the character and take the domain that allows freedom of movement (he HATES hold person spells).

In my campaign I am not going to allow it. Gods grant domains and they do so on a quid pro quo basis. The Gods are getting certain things in return for those granted domains. Who or what will do this for those who worship an ideal?

This happens to be in a campaign that a friend is running and I may or may not be able to convince him that this should not be allowed.

What do people do in their own campaigns?
 

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SableWyvern

Adventurer
Ysgarran said:

This happens to be in a campaign that a friend is running and I may or may not be able to convince him that this should not be allowed.

What do people do in their own campaigns?

If your friend's campaign doesn't hold that "ideals" within this context are real universal forces, you shouldn't need to convince him. If your friend's campaign does allow for that, then you have no right to try and convince him. IOW, unless the DM in question is inexperienced and relies on you for advice, I don't really think its any of your business.

Personally, I allow characters to worship moral/ethical principles (ie, alignments), as allowed for in the PHB. If I had a player that strongly wanted a character that followed a particular deal, and was willing to put enough effort into his character concept to justify me allowing such a thing, I might allow a god who offers the domain in question to silently support the character.

The character's relationship with his (unknown) patron deity would then come out in play, and at some point he would probably have to choose between open worship and losing his abilities.

Why doesn't this player just pick a deity that provides his desired domain?
 
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My DM has a standard pantheon, but is pretty flexible as far as what he lets us play, his philosiphy being the fun for is running the game and the fun for use is playing the characters we want to play. So if i say wanted a cleric with certain domains, and i had a good reason that my character didn't worship one of his gods, he'd find a way to make it work.

One question is your character actually min/maxing, in that the freedom of movement is going to work in conjuction with some other power to make his character extra powerful. Or is he just meta-gaming, in order to aviod a sittuation he as a player really hates getting into?

Min/maxing and meta-gaming both seem to have a certian stigma attached to them, but if you and your friends like playing mega-powerful campaigns than i think min/maxing is exeptable(but thats the only time). As for meta-gaming i really don't see a problem with that, in moderation, at all. If not worrying about hold spells makes the guy happy and allows him to have more fun wht not let him do it? So long as he really isn't min/maxing.
 

der_kluge

Adventurer
Normally, I wouldn't talk about this, but hey, Bluffside is at the printers, so you'll find out in a a couple of weeks anyway.

At any rate, one of the things that we did with the Bluffside gods is that a bunch of them died in the world's history (you'll have to read the book for why!) But, because some of the gods died out, it left voids, and there was no one to fill those voids (i.e., no mortals powerful enough to ascend) so "ideas" filled the voids, and godly personas were created based on ideals.
So, in Bluffside there are two kinds of gods - those who ascended, and those who were formed around specific ideals and took on godly form. So, there is a god of "fire, creation, renewal, warmth" who is an example of this kind of god. He (it) has a name, and is worshipped in many different ways across the land. In some places, it's an evil god, but in most places, it's a good god.
Some Sages argue that spells granted by these "gods" don't come from gods at all, but merely the will of the people.

So, I wouldn't have a problem with that. But, it'd have to be represented as a god. In other words, I couldn't just declare that I worship "peace" and get spells granted to me. There still has to be a "god" to provide the power, but "god" can be loosely defined.
 

Zappo

Explorer
If it's just for min-maxing, he can choose to worship his alignment and get any domain he wants. This is allowed by the rules.
 

Ysgarran

Registered User
Our campaigns do tend towards the powerfull side of the game. I except that out this group, but I guess it is getting under my skin that this player is pushing it to the extreme. His current class progression path is:
1 Rogue/1 Ranger/ 1 Barbarian/1 Cleric.
(He is currently at third level, his next level will be those cleric domains).

He knows that he will have absolutely terrible will saves: that is why he is trying to hedge his bets by taking those cleric domains. I'm not exactly a co-DM in this situation but I do help out with creating antagonists and plot lines.

I don't want to get into any kind of arguments about playing styles...the first rule is to have fun. I won't push it with my GM either, I'll just ask some questions like: does the campaign
SableWyvern
hold that "ideals" within this context are real universal forces

and leave it at that.
 
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I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Oh, yeah!

IMC, it's possible to have an athiestic cleric.

It's possible for a character to worship ideals and not just gods.

For instance, a player of mine runs an "American-Minded Cleric" who follows the ideals of Freedom and Exploration, gaining the domains of Travel and Chaos. He could just worship Fharinlaghniamhangfingiaghanan (or whatever), but that's not in his character concept, so he doesn't have to.

There's nothing wrong with min-maxing, either, as long as there's proper justification for it. Fun's the key, after all. :)
 

Tuerny

First Post
Enlightened Faith of the Ideals

I thought long and hard about this for my first 3rd edition D&D campaign and this is what I came up with. :)

Background:

The Enlightened Faith of the Ideals arose from the teachings of the Prophet Naritoki in the days leading up to the War of Rebellion. Naritoki was born to a Mendalese family of scholar-servants in the city of Dal Mathos, working for a rich Aeldaekflar family in the process of writing down the knowledge that their erstwhile master collected from the borderlands. Not much is known of Naritoki's childhood beyond this, but he is known to have, during this time, met with a scion of the house he served by the name of Daern. They became fast friends despite Naritoki's heritage. During this time Naritoki also began to develop a deep understanding of the true purpose of humanity and the Ideals.

When Naritoki first began to teach of the Ideals in the Dal Mathos to the Mendalese inhabitants of the faith spread like wildfire. The Mendalese, who had long ago abandoned their gods for letting them fall to the Aeldaekflar, found a new hope and dedication to be had in the Ideals. They rallied behind Naritoki and supported him in order to allow him to spread his faith to all without worry of hunger or bending to an Aeldaekflar master. The faith in the Ideals even spread to nearby lands and within a few years students of Naritoki had spread his new faith from one end of the Dol Kalzarn region to another. The gnomes, the human slaves of the Aeldaekflar, and even some of the Aeldaekflar began to follow the teachings and the hope that they brought. Most of the Aeldaekflar were less than pleased.

Harsh crackdowns commenced as the Aeldaekflar nobles began to cut down those who worshipped in the streets and demanded that Naritoki turn himself in to the capital, Nar Mimbar. Despite the protest of his followers, Naritoki insisted that he must do so to prevent the suffering of the people and, maybe, convince the Aeldaekflar leaders of the validity of the Ideals. He never returned, dying in the dungeons of Nar Mimbar. This touched off the War of Rebellion, which is detailed elsewhere, and, eventually, brought the Aeldaekflar who did not subscribe to the Ideals to their knees.

Since then the Ideals has become the most prevalent faith of the Dol Kalzarn region. Holding the most sway in Faeg-Than and Tentran, the cradles of the faith, but with a large number of followers in Vandracia, Candroles, and Caramic. The most prominent rival religion is the Cult of the Moondancer, in Vandracia, but a variety of lesser deities, known as the Ancient Gods, have worshippers throughout the region.
The Faith: The Enlightened Faith of the Ideals is rather simple at its core. Adherents believe that all individuals possess an inner, immortal soul that continuously cycles through a series of lives and deaths, seeking to became perfect and ascend to the Celestial Realms. To achieve perfection the soul must unite their mind, body, and soul with a single one of the Ten Ideals. It is almost impossible for one to achieve complete unification with an Ideal within a single lifetime, however, and each individual has all of their cycle of lives to succeed. Truly exceptional individuals, such as the ten students who became the Saints, can achieve it though, and when they do so become guides to later individuals who follow a particular path.

The Saints are said to be ten early students of Naritoki who achieved ascension soon after his death. They serve to help those who seek to achieve perfection along their path, providing help through dreams, visions, and the application of divination magics. Those close enough to perfection along the path are able to hear the voice of the Saints themselves at times and do not need to rely on more indirect methods. It is believed that this is because that only those who are close to achieving the perfection that is demanded for ascension can understand what the Saints say. Others need magic for translation or it comes out in forms that need to be deciphered.

The Ideals and the Saints who serve them are as follows:
Mercy Malla
Temperance Sestaria
Peace Orlane
Honor Curiona
Devotion Neros
Courage Zanzeral
Obedience Camuros
Justice Arumoros
Liberty Pathane
Discipline Tambaral

The Individual Ideals:
Each of the Ideals can be summed up as follows:

Mercy: All beings deserve life and their own individual attempt at the Ideals. Suffering, hatred, anger, and pain all detract from individual perfection and must be removed for a being to achieve this. Those who help to remove those things that hinder those who seek to achieve perfection are following their own path. The Path of Mercy.
Domains: Good, Healing, Protection
Favored Weapon: Quarterstaff
Symbol: A heart held within a woman's hand.

Temperance: Excess in anything detracts from harmony within the body, soul, and mind and thus hinders those who wish to achieve perfection. Only through temperance, a balance between all activities in ones life, can perfection be achieved and ascension gained.
Domains: Knowledge, Protection, Luck
Favored Weapon: Light Mace
Symbol: A set of scales in perfect balance

Peace: Conflict and strife are an eternal plague on the land and the people who inhabit it. With conflict one cannot achieve the peace of mind and focus necessary to achieve perfection. By bringing peace, both within ones self and in the outside world, one can achieve Ascension through the Ideal of Peace.
Domains: Law, Protection, Good
Favored Weapons: None
Symbol: A white field with a dove on it.

Honor: Truth in ones word, dedication in ones action, and living ones life with integrity and virtue are all precepts of the Ideal of Honor. Honor is an individual Ideal, only achievable through individual dedication and effort. When Honor becomes imprinted on to the very essence of the individual who seeks this Ideal they will ascend.
Domains: Law, Good, War
Favored Weapons: Long Sword
Symbol: The hilt of a sword pointing downwards

Devotion: The Ideal of Devotion revolves around the dedication, in deed and thought, to the enlightenment of humanity and the spiritual welfare of mortals. Dedication to the essence of what the Ideals stand for and the sacrifice and wisdom of Naritoki are also paramount to the Ideal of Devotion. Through the expansion of the faith in the Ideals one can aid ones own faith and perfection, thus achieving Ascension.
Domains: Knowledge, Travel, Good
Favored Weapons: Dagger
Symbol: A silhouette of Naritoki

Valor: Danger is a mere illusion to those who have an immortal soul and a dedication to the Ideals. Through the facing of ones fears and the removal of all cowardice from ones essence you can achieve perfection, and thus Ascension.
Domains: Strength, Good, Protection
Favored Weapon: Heavy Mace
Symbol: A heart surrounded by a white nimbus.

Obedience: Total adherence to the directives of ones inner voice, ones conscience, and to the directives of ones temporal liege is another path to achieve Ascension. When one reaches a state where one no longer debates orders from either inner or outer authorities than they have achieved this Ideal and are ready for moving on to the Celestial Realms.
Domains: Law, Protection, Knowledge
Favored Weapon: Spiked Gauntlet
Symbol: A gauntlet on a field of white.

Justice: Those who have suffered an injustice are led away from their devotion to the Ideals. Those who pursue the Ideal of Justice seek to ensure justice both within themselves, preventing them from causing any accidental injustices, and within the world around, seeking to achieve a state where they can sense the harmony of justice. When they have succeeded in doing this they have achieved their Ideal.
Domains: Law, Knowledge, Luck
Favored Weapon: Battle Axe
Symbol: Scales that are out of balance on a field of white

Liberty: Freedom to follow ones conscience regardless of the influences of often uncaring or blind laws is the main tenet of the Ideal of Liberty. Those who follow the Ideal of Liberty are not only concerned with their own Liberty, however, but areconcerned with the Liberty of all those who live. Those who do not have liberty do not have the freedom to achieve perfection. When a Seeker of the Ideal of Liberty has freed himself and those around him from even a moments hesitation about worry of the possible reactions of others they have achieved true Liberty, and thus protection.
Domains: Chaos, Luck, Travel
Favored Weapon: Shortspear
Symbol: A field of blue with an open hand at the center.

Discipline: The ability to ignore all distractions when dedicated to a task or goal. The strength of body, spirit, and mine to achieve a state of no-thought where there is no reaction or consideration but rather action. The ability to become one with the rhythms of the cosmos. These are the features of the Ideal of Discipline. When they are achieved then Ascension is possible.
Domains: Law, Knowlege, Strength
Favored Weapon: Unarmed Attack
Symbol: Two fists together on a field of blue.

The Church of the Ideals
History: After the War of Rebellion ended and the modern nations formed, those dedicated to the Ideals were at a loss of what to do. They had received the wisdom of Naritoki's Ideals and a general idea of what they were about but only the barest idea of how to reach them. Naritoki was dead, unable to share his wisdom any more, and his ten best students had all Ascended to the Celestial Realms. Many of his secondary students were concerned with only their own Ascension, establishing themselves with a life of contemplation in hopes of achieving this lofty goal. One of the students, however, dedicated to the Ideal of Devotion, refused to allow the Faith to lose its focus. This student, by the name of Mariana Antion, began to travel among the various mystics who had established themselves throughout Dol Kalzarn, speaking to them of the legacy of Naritoki and what they needed to do to honor it.
After almost a decade of effort and work Mariana's labor prove successful. The Church of the Ideals had been forged into a united organization with influence throughout Dol Kalzarn. Mariana became the High Theocrat of the newly formed Enlightened Church of the Ideals, and, with the blessing of King Daern of Faeg-Than, established the Church in Naritoki's birthplace: Dal Mathos. Over the rest of Mariana's tenure as High Theocrat the organization of the Church was put into the form that it possesses today.
Goals: The Enlightened Church of the Ideals seeks to spread the various theories of how to achieve Ascension among the populace, allowing them to pursue the Ideal that most suits them in an educated manner. They also seek out spiritually advanced members of the populace to, if they wish, train to become Seekers of an Ideal; mystics who are dedicated body and soul to an Ideal rather than any sort of worldly concern.
Another primary concern for the Enlightened Church is looking out for the well being of the members of the Church and the Faith. To that end they make sure that the governments of areas where the Faith is prevalent look out for the concerns and rights of followers of the Faith. They seek to gather material wealth to sustain the buildings that honor the Ideals are maintained as well as the bodies of those who chose to follow the Ideals above any other concern.
Organization: The Seekers make up the bulk of the clergy of the Church, following their own, personal path to Ascension; as well as occasionally guiding those who do not have their level of dedication along the path of the Ideals.
Above the Seekers are the Guides, those who are very far advanced along the path to achieving their Ideal. They are rarely seen in public, choosing in many cases to remain discrete from the gazes of others, preferring to attempt to achieve Ascension without the knowledge of others. Guides rarely hold a political position in the Church, instead holding to their Ideal alone.
Abbots retain roughly the same effective rank as Guides in the Church, but rarely are more spiritually developed than the Seekers. Rather, Abbots act to guide the populace in the areas around their Abbeys and to train new Seekers in the Church. Abbots answer to the Theocrats.
Theocrats are high ranked Abbots who oversee Church activities in a wide area of Dol Kalzarn. Their are nine Theocrats in the Dol Kalzarn region. Three oversee Faeg-Than and Deeptown, two are responsible for Tentran, one leads the faithful of Vandrcaia, and one oversees the few Abbeys in Candroles, Caramic, and Freeport. The remaining two Theocrats act as direct servants of the High Theocrat, insuring that his direction is followed and that most of the petty administrative concerns of the Church are dealt with. Theocrats report directly to the High Theocrat.
The current High Theocrat is Mardar Antion, grandson of the original High Theocrat, and one of the most respected leaders in Dol Kalzarn, and the most revered religious teacher since Naritoki himself. He is believed by many to be on the verge of Ascension and rarely handles any of the day-to-day affairs of running the Church, leaving that instead to the two Theocrats who serve him. Those who have seen Mardar recently claim that he is bathed in a celestial aura, signifying the fact that he is about to Ascend. Few doubt that.
 

AFGNCAAP

First Post
First, I have to agree with SableWyvern--it's entirely up to the DM.

However, as for a cleric which worships an ideal, following one's alignment (or some virtues valued by that AL) can be very viable.

Another good idea of worshipping an ideal, IMHO, is the Ultima games (4+). The Avatar exemplifies the Eight Virtues (Honesty, Compassion, Valor, Justice, Sacrifice, Honor, Spirituality, & Humility), derived from the Three Principles (Truth, Love, & Courage). A very viable belief system for a cleric which doesn't include the presence of a deity.

However, I am curious about this player's intentions---is it that this player doesn't see any deity listed which could grant him access to particular domains? Or is he trying to metagame or min/max his character, trying to take the most beneficial domains for his character &/or evading the hierarchy/obligations of being a cleric of a particular faith (no tithing, no obligations to the church, etc.)?

As for what I do in my campaign, I have each "religious class" be a part of a different belief system:

*Clerics & paladins are part of a polytheistic faith.
*Shugenja worship the Great Kami, which are essentially the 4 highest gods of the polytheistic faith.
*Druids & rangers follow druidism, which worships the force of nature (& not some nature deity).
*Shamans are animists, gaining their powers from various spirits.
*Monks & sohei follow monasticism, an agnostic (if not atheistic) belief system which has them derive their abilities from within instead of from a divine force (such as the force of nature, spirits, or deities).

So in my campaign world, a priest who follows an ideal instead of spirits, gods, or even a supernatural force is a monk. :)
 

Deadguy

First Post
Down With Gods!!

When I started to design my Shattered World setting, one of the key design ideas was to get rid of Gods! Over the years I have played in and observed no end of campaigns where the PCs are just marionettes dancing to the will of many deities. Heck, I've been responsible for doing the same myself! They're a convenient 'out' for a DM, a way of getting PCs to follow the right path because basically their are hugely powerful beings who will cream them if they step wrong.

Sorry, had to get that out of my system! (And I will add that I have seen gods, faith and religion handled really well, too. It's just not all that common.)

So for the Shattered World, there are no gods. Instead there are universal Principles like Order, Decay, Power and Questing. The firm belief in these Principles, as elucidated by a wide number of different groups and organisations, produces the power of Passion magic (the replacement to Divine magic). The key 'believers' are Theurges, and they act much like Clerics. Different groups perceive the Principles differently. So, for example, both the Hierarchy (Lawful Evil) and the Glorious Legion (Lawful Good) are believers in the Power Principle. But the Legion wants Power in order to right the world's wrongs and to preserve life, whilst the Hierarchy are firm beleivers that it it is right and proper that people should rise over the weak and dominate the world. Thus they get access to quite different Domains, representing those beliefs.

I have found that this system takes players a little time to get used to. There are no 'divine' beings telling them the truth. Instead they are decided within the group, by whatever means orthodoxy is decided. naturally Chaotic groups tend to fracture regularly! But it does mean that players can aspire to actually influence their groups and maybe even recast an entire group in a different Principle (okay extreme, but it has happenedd in the backstory to the campaign).

I guess I am saying that Principles can work fine as the basis for 'clerical' belief, but you need to think through the consequences a bit.
 

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