Worst 3.5 publishers?

[Darrin Drader]

He asked.

And it's not that I think 3.5 is bad. I don't think it's what was advertised during its announcement...

Alright, now that the books have been out for a while and people have had a good chance to look them over, lets look at the pros vs. the cons.

Pros:
* Virtually every spell has been rewritten to reflect the original intent of what the designers. This includes the elimination of numerous vaguaries that were often exploited by power gamers (important in home games, but huge in organized games).
* Improvements upon the core classes to make them more enjoyable and worthwhile to play.
* The skills have been streamlined and slightly reworked to make more logical sense.
* More feats in the core rules.
* More prestige classes in the core rules.
* Now includes the basic epic level rules.
* Monster entries expanded to include both tougher versions and the information necessary to easily make them player characters.
* Fully supported by the SRD.

Cons:
* A few errors, such as accidentally omitting that prestige classes don't count towards your XP penalty for multiclassing.
* Having to buy the books again. Oh, but wait, you don't since its fully supported by the SRD.

I'm not trying to flame your point of view, I just don't comprehend it. If re-buying the books is the big hangup, just compare the number of hours of enjoyment you get out of the game to the dollars you spend to see a movie.

Couple all that with statements made by peeps like Monte Cook (whose voice and opinions carry quite a bit of weight with a lot of people) and that might be another reason some people dislike 3.5 too.

Technically Monte is now the owner of a competing business, and he was one of the original designers who didn't get the chance to revise the game the way that he would see it done. Just because it wasn't done the way he would like doesn't mean that it wasn't done well. In fact, when Monte gave his review, he voiced some concerns, but his review was largely favorable. He did say that overall he likes it and that the negative elements of what he said were taken out of context and used for purposes that run contrary to his original intent.

 

[MerricB]

I think Monte did an excellent job with the BoVD.

I think he did a good job, but some of the prestige classes and feats (the areas I pay most attention to) were a little pedestrian. Diplomacy bonuses to villains don't really do much for me.

The rest of the material was much better, though.

I feel the 3,5 offerings have so far all been outstanding and memorable. I have nothing but praise for the Draconomicon, the Complete Warrior, and the Miniature's Handbook. The Draconomicon finally gives us a number of different dragons fully statted out (saving the DM quite a bit of time), the Miniature's Handbook finally gives us official mass combat rules

If only they were (a) OGC and (b) not 1:1 scale. I actually really like the mass combat rules, but the 1:1 scale makes them too limiting for really big combats. The Battle of Neraka (from DL14: Dragons of Triumph) had about 2000 troops a side; that's a little clunky with the MHb rules. And with the Cry Havoc miniature rules.

and some really cool monsters and classes

No argument there. The MHb was the best new D&D/d20 book I bought during the year. It also showed some different philosophies on class design that I wish would be used more often.

and the Complete Warrior gives us a reworking of the 3.0 prestige classes as well as a lot of new options that didn't exist before. I can understand the criticism that it all focuses on rules, but for those that perfer setting material instead (and I actually fall more into this category myself) there's the Unapproachable East and Underdark.

Mid-year we'll get to see Eberron, which I'm really excited about.

I am as well, and I didn't expect to be.

I'm actually far happier with the current product line than I was with AD&D back in the late TSR days, and I think the 3.5 stuff is looking far better than 3.0. I just don't understand this 3.5 backlash. Sure, there's a couple of errors in the books, but there's less than there were in the 3.0 books, the books themselves are sturdier, and the revisions go a long way towards clarifying and balancing things that were just plain broken in 3.0

Fewer errors, not less errors, Darrin. If you can count them, you use fewer. Oh, wait a moment...

What amazes me is how few D&D products WotC are actually producing each year. I greatly appreciate that.

Here is the list of D&D Products produced in 2003: (3 years after 3E was released in 2000):
Arms and Equipment Guide
Book of Exalted Deeds
Complete Warrior
Draconomicon
Dungeon Master's Guide 3.5E
Fiend Folio
Ghostwalk
Monster Manual 3.5E
Player's Handbook 3.5E
Savage Species
Dragonlance Campaign Setting
Races of Faerun
Unapproachable East
Underdark
Miniatures Handbook


Here is the list of A/D&D products produced in 1992: (3 years after 2E was released in 1989):
1064 From the Ashes Campaign Setting, boxed set
9371 LNQ1 Slayers of Lankhmar
2126 Arabian Adventures rulebook
1077 Land of Fate Campaign Setting, boxed set
2129 MC 13, Monstrous Compendium, Al-Qadim Appendix
9366 ALQ1 Golden Voyage
2408 Dragon Kings rulebook
2405 MC 12 Monstrous Compendium, Dark Sun Appendix
2406 DSQ1 Road to Urik
2410 DSQ2 Arcane Shadows
2412 DSQ3 Asticlian Gambit
2404 DSR1 Slave Tribes
2407 DSR2 Dune Trader
2411 DSR3 Veiled Alliance
2413 DSR4 Valley of Dust and Fire
9360 WGR2 Treasures of Greyhawk
9386 WGR3 Rary the Traitor
9385 WGQ1 Patriots of Ulek
1083 Menzoberranzen Campaign Expansion, boxed set
9351 FR14 The Great Glacier
9373 FR15 Gold & Glory
346 Pirates of the Fallen Stars
9349 FMQ1 City of Gold
9354 FRQ1 Haunted halls of Eveningstar
9369 FRQ2 Hordes of Dragonspear
1074 Tales of the Lance Campaign Setting, boxed set
9383 DLR3 Unsung Heroes
9381 DLQ1 Knight's Sword
9382 DLQ2 Flint's Axe
2129 MC 14, Monstrous Compendium, Fiend Folio Appendix
9293 The Magic Encyclopedia, Vol. 1
2127 PHBR7 The Complete Bard's Handbook
2131 PHBR8 The Complete Book of Elves
2128 DMGR4 Monster Mythology
9323 HR2 Charlemagne's Paladins Campaign Sourcebook
9376 HR3 Celts Campaign Sourcebook
9370 HR4 A Mighty Fortress Campaign Sourcebook
1079 Forbidden Lore Campaign Expanion, boxed set
9352 RQ1 Night of the Walking Dead
9364 RQ2 Thoughts of Darkness
9375 RQ3 From the Shadows
9348 RR4 Islands of Terror
9355 RR5 Van Richten's Guide to Ghosts
1072 The War Captain's Companion, boxed set
9347 SJQ1 Heart of the Enemy
9361 SJR5 Rock of Bral
9374 SJR6 Greyspace
2130 CGR1 The Complete Spacefarer's Handbook
9353 GR1 Strongholds
9365 GR2 Dungeons of Mystery
9377 GR3 Treasure Maps
9330 HHQ1 Fighter's Challenge
9359 HHQ1 Wizard's Challenge
9380 REF6 Rogues' Gallery
9342 Entry 1 Quest for the Silver Sword
9350 Entry 2 Assault on Raven's Ruin
9357 Entry 3 Thunder Rift
9387 Entry 4 Sword & Shield
9363 Entry 5 Character & Monster Assortment
9378 HWQ1 The Milenian Scepter
9384 HWR3 The Milenian Empire
9259 The Jade Hare
9368 PC4 Creature Crucible: Night Howlers
1073 The Dragon's Den adventure pack
1076 The Goblin's Lair adventure pack
1082 Wrath of the Immortals
9372 Poor Wizard's Almanac


Notice the difference?

Cheers!

 

[Darrin Drader]

INotice the difference?

Quality Vs. quantity?

 

[MerricB]

Quality Vs. quantity?

I do wonder if anyone could buy all of the TSR D&D products released during that time.

With regard to the original question on this thread: I find it nearly impossible to get non-WotC d20 Products. (BoEM3, Cry Havoc + Stargate SG-1 have been the sum total of my d20 purchases this year, alas!) I think things will improve for publishers as the 3.5E release date becomes more a thing of the past and the writers get more familiar with the rules.

Cheers!

 

[Pramas]

One of the things you find once you peak behind the curtain of the gaming industry is that there are a number of "names" in the biz who have pretty ridden the coattails of superior editors.

Ain't that the truth! Editors and developers are the unsung heroes of the game industry.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Alright, now that the books have been out for a while and people have had a good chance to look them over, lets look at the pros vs. the cons.

This doesn't apply to everyone ofc, but most of the people I've met that hate 3.5 so much, decided they'd hate it before the books came out. "Oh, I knew what it would be"
They decided that it was all house rules in an attempt for WotC to charge the customers again and nothing can disuade that opinion.
Like I said, it's not everyone by far, but a lot of the people argue about rules that don't even affect their game.
And if I hear one more time that Miniatures are Required, I'll scream!
(heck, I'll just scream now to get it out of the way...)

Technically Monte is now the owner of a competing business, and he was one of the original designers who didn't get the chance to revise the game the way that he would see it done.

There's also an element of the turnover rate with Wizards, so it's hard to judge how "in" Monte is at this point, information wise. He recounts the tale of an early meeting, but can he say what happened later?
Granted, he's much more in the loop than me.

On the topic of the thread:
Ravenloft: I was steadily loosing interest in the products anyway, but the new Players Guide is almost a direct reprint of the original campaign guide. "updated to 3.5" in this instance really didn't have enough changes. Kind of killed the series for me for good I think.
(well, that and the fact that RL for me was driven by adventures, and without such, I'm not buying rulebooks of bad mechanics.)

 

[Turjan]

The point is that most people here on the boards won't be able to answer the original question. I don't buy product of companies that get lots of unfavourable reviews. This means that I can't really say anything on my own about these companies.
This seems to be the reason why this thread lost tracks . Haven't seen a Mongoose book in quite a while.

 

[d20Dwarf]

Ain't that the truth! Editors and developers are the unsung heroes of the game industry.

This is absolutely the case. The Top 5 game designers thread got me thinking, and while I didn't post anything it made me realize that some of the editors I've worked with have really played a huge role in me having a full time job at this.

Thanks editors!

 

[BrooklynKnight]

I think it would be great if the "best" d20 publishers out there (Best meaning quality) all merged together. Perhaps then they could compete heads on with wotc.

 

[Turjan]

I think it would be great if the "best" d20 publishers out there (Best meaning quality) all merged together. Perhaps then they could compete heads on with wotc.

Ooh, no! Let them compete. Too much competition is bad, because this leads to inconsistency and lots of things developped several times. But on the other hand, now every company tries to fill a niche and tries to fill that well. I like it like that .