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Worst book WotC made for 3.0?

Worst WotC 3.0 book(s) ever?

  • Fiend Folio

    Votes: 3 0.7%
  • Monster Manual II

    Votes: 10 2.4%
  • Deities & Demigods

    Votes: 88 21.2%
  • Psionics Handbook

    Votes: 60 14.5%
  • Book of Vile Darkness

    Votes: 40 9.6%
  • Manual of the Planes

    Votes: 12 2.9%
  • Arms & Equipment Guide

    Votes: 95 22.9%
  • Savage Species

    Votes: 29 7.0%
  • Epic Level Handbook

    Votes: 96 23.1%
  • Stronghold Builders Guidebook

    Votes: 75 18.1%
  • Book of Challenges

    Votes: 101 24.3%
  • Oriental Adventures

    Votes: 18 4.3%

  • Poll closed .
OA

tassander said:

I want CHINA, SIAM, INDIA... where were they? some feats and classes is all we get? sheesh.

I adore OA, so I feel compelled to respond...

In case you're unaware, India's actually covered in the OA web enhancement, Mahasarpa. I sort of wish Mahasarpa were included in the main book, but it doesn't bother me; it's a great setting, and there's nothing I'd want to see removed from OA.

There are plenty of China bits throughout the book. Look at the vanara. Look at the monsters. Heck, as much of the Rokugan stuff is China-inspired as Japan-inspired.

Siam-specific material I can't help you with, I admit.

If you're complaining that there's a lack of real setting fluff and role-playing material, I'll grant you that. But I have a hard time being bothered by that when there's so much other good content; almost everything in there is useful and interesting. (Including the Rokugan chapters for non-Rokugan campaigns.) If I really want culture / lifestyle information, I can read any history book.
 

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ColonelHardisson said:


You and me both.
What do you think, Colonel? Do you think this is an issue of it being a limited resource? I honestly think that can be the only thing.

I mean, it offers not only great flavor, but it takes basic mechanics introduced in the three core rule books and transforms these into some of the most intense, interesting, and insideous encounters I've come across in years!
 


So the impression I'm getting is that more than 50% of the posts are people saying that a particular book was fine, it just wasn't their cup of tea; and for that reason the book in question was "one of the worst"?
Come on! For example; I don't own the Manual of the Planes because I do not yet have a use for it, but I'm not going to put it on a list of Worst WotC 3.0 books. In fact, a lot of people have said it was one of the best 3.0 books.
I have no use for a bra but I'm not going to say it was one of the worst products ever made.

This poll was broken from the beginning because it fails to list all of the WotC 3.0 products. Why Oriental Adventures makes the poll but Forgotten Realms products don't I do not know. Frankly, I think that books dealing primarily with settings other than the default should have been left off to make room for other stuff.

For Instance
Prime example here: The Hero Builder's Guidebook
It's the book that immediately came to my mind when I read this poll, is it a choice on the poll? No. Is there at least a choice for "Other" on the poll? No.
The fact that so many people have included it as a "write-in" choice should indicate something. This book is only useful to the most absolute rank beginner, or a DM that wants to show it to the most absolute rank beginners. And in the end, that kind of info is plentiful on the internet. This site alone probably holds most of it. A DM could easily compile that kind of thing and print it as a handout if they have a newbie in their group.

Free random name generators and min-maxing guides should pretty much cover the information gained by buying the HBGB.

In the end though, I'm not going to complain about the book too much, because; A: No one forced me to buy it, and B: I, in fact, did not buy it.
I can understand some people get miffed at the idea that WotC spent time and resources developing something that they themselves didn't want, or wanted in theory but found in the end that the product didn't give them what they wanted. But I still say listing a book that is perfectly good other than the fact that you're not interested in it is...Lame? Rude? Well, it's something shady. I don't know.
Save the ire for books like the HBGB that offer nothing in exchange for your money. For a few extra bucks you can have a hardback rule book.
 

I voted for Deities & Demigods because is seemed to me like two half written books that were slapped together. I'd have rather seen one book that focused on the different frameworks for the spiritual component of a campaign - more pantheons, forces, philosophies, hierarchies of angels and saints, ect. ; and another book that focused on immortal level play. Two quality products instead of one mediocre offering.
 

It's a tough call, as the worst WotC 3.0 book is still better than some of the average material of some publishers. Complaining that the HBGB is a poor resource for experienced gamers misses the point completely: it's well written for someone who might get overwhelmed by the intimidating PHB, with it's hundred of pages. It baby-steps newbies through the process of what D&D is, and how characters are made. Would I buy it again? No.

Dieties and Demigods was exactly what it claimed to be...but it seemed to have missed so many chances to be something more. I'm not really sure why the hatin' for Enemies and Allies or Book of Challenges. They are two of the best resources available for the idea-strapped DM. I've used many of the NPCs from the E&A, and they've added mad flava to my games.

Lots of the books are like that. I said the ELH, mostly because I thought the execution was poor, and the inclusion of a setting was a mistake. I don't need sample cities with EL25 guards...I need examples of play, better rules, more clarifications and Epic Magic that doesn't suck.

As for the Gazetteers...my players respectfully disagree. I think the LGJ could be better by far, but it's a good resource. The D&D Gazeteer, on the other hand, offered only as much detail as my players need. A map and some brief descriptors.
 
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OK, first, we need to define "worst".

"Worst" does not mean "I'm not interested in this" or "It's not my cup of tea". The 'guy-bra' argument neatly makes this point.

Let's consider some "worst" definitions:

*Value: from a pure "page content versus price" perspective, A&E takes the cake, reprinting material appearing in other books that were widely owned. Odds are, most gamers owned at least some of the sources used for A&E. Coming in a distant second would be the MMII, reprinting web enhancements, dragon magazine monsters, and splat book data, as well as a few SS monsters. And an even more distant third is the SBGB, nicely reprinting an entire chapter from Song & Silence on traps, as though the game designers couldn't decide which book it belonged in, so they beefed up the page count of both.

Of course the clear winner here is the write-in candidate of the HBGB, with all of it's content being available as random name generators & archived message board data, all of it free.

*Concept: this isn't so much a "we don't like it" as it is "should this have been done for the game". Should the ELH have been for levels "21+", or perhaps a more sane range of "21-40"? For storytelling purposes, 'magic' serves the same thematic purpose as 'science' or 'psionics', so are psionics really necessary to tell the kinds of stories of D&D? This is also a catch-all category for the whiney remarks of "why should there be a book telling us what evil is" or "why should there be a book about how to play monsters".

*Execution: Between promise & delivery often lies a hard road. The clear winners here are the ELH (whose Epic Spellcasting chapter alone would get votes if allowed, I suspect) and D&D, which had great promise as a roleplaying suppliment & was instead a Super-Sized monster manual. Coming in a strong second is Bruce Cordell's Psionics Handbook; it's really telling that Bruce has gone on to write multiple 3rd party books with variant & alternate handling of the psionics rules; if it wasn't broke, how come you're tryin' so hard to fix it? The BoVD gets an honorable mention, simply for including the Lords of Hell with CRs in the 20s, but having most of the rest of the monsters & material made for levels 1-12, creating a lovely gap in the material's usability. While I can't make a personal judgement, I suspect many would put OA in 3rd place for the things it didn't do. I'll also give an honorable mention to the MMII, simply because the FF showed us what a good monster manual should include: rules for integrating the material with existing suppliments. The sidebars in the FF are what the web-enhancement for the MMII should have been.

*Usability: How much hammering is necessary to make the book fit, and how often can you use it? This isn't a "my style of play" category, but rather a question of interaction with the existing rules. You can't ding the MotP just because you don't like the idea of the Planes; the core rules have multiple spells & items that use the Planes, and having good support material helps a lot. OTOH, the PsiHB needs multiple patches to create a psion with less stringent ability requirements than a monk/paladin. The SBGB works well with its own internal logic, but puts astronomical numbers into the already absurd D&D economy, and does not hold up well outside of its own context. S&F is the clear winner here, though, needing not only its own FAQ, but two errattas to boot. It also gets extra credit for starting PrC creep in 3E, a crabgrass threatening to choke every suppliment in sight. SS fits between S&F and PsiHB for problematic elements, having Outsider PCs with 1/4 the skill points of Outsider NPCs, giving us the "Roll with it Feat" and countless other stumbling blocks on the road to integration into a game.



I think most gamers consider the Value, Concept & Execution factors most heavily, with each individual putting weight based on preference. The 'iffy' concept of the ELH, combined with the terrible execution make it a 'worst' for many. The terrible value and unnecessary concept of A&E put it on the 'worst' list for others. 'Enemies & Allies' is a question of 'iffy' value and questionable concept. Frankly, the Book of Challenges looked like a very straight forward module book, and I can't understand the hate towards it. Now, the "Hero Builder's Guidebook" is a true trifecta: Terrible value, horrible concept, & wretched execution. (that WotC did nothing to support the concepts brought up in the book is a good sign that even their own R&D people didn't like it)
 

Savage Species.

I waited almost three years for a system that consisted of "Anything good enough to worry about is a level, give or take, but use your common sense"?

Pah.
 

What, no Psionics Handbook? I thought it was a very poorly designed and play-tested product.

I didn't buy most of the books on the list, but the one book that I was flat out irritated to have spent money on was the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook. Not all that interesting or usable from my perspective and the prices given are completely wacked.
 

You know, it's amazing.

Book of Challenges has the highest number of votes... and yet not one person has bothered to explain what he or she felt was wrong with the book.
 

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