Worst DM Quotes at Gencon

[Adso]

Adso, do you have any say-so over whether RPGA judges receive feedback forms from their players on how well they judged the game?

I've played in RPGA games before and gotten to rate my Judge's performance -- and this seemed a good thing, both for me (because I got to rave about a good GM, or vent about a lousy one) and for the Judge (because if they cared, they'd get some feedback that would help them improve their judging).

This GenCon was the first time I've judged for RPGA, however, and I was disappointed that I didn't get feedback from my players. Is this a permanent change? Can it be retracted? I really like the idea of getting such feedback.

Daniel

While I am not the architect of the GMs program (that would be Ian Richards the RPGA Program Manager) I am involved with the new GM program and its design.

We used to have a rate the GM section to session scoring, which gave feedback from the players. The feedback was tied to the old scoring, so a DM’s score which ultimately decided the DM’s level. The problem with this is that player’s could “hijack the GM;” withholding good scores for desired rulings. While this was never problematic in the old system where levels were merely bragging rights, when we looked to re-tool the GM program and have tangible benefits granted to higher-level GMs, we wanted to move away from this system for obvious reasons. There were also some questions in the feedback that didn’t work with the paradigm shifts involved with moving from 2nd edition to 3rd and beyond.

For instance we use to have this question on the GMs rules knowledge. The example of poor rules knowledge was “constantly had to refer to his or her rulebooks to answer rules questions.

My first Winter Fantasy as WotC/RPGA staff, Monte Cook came up to me and asked me if we could change this. “We want people to look in their book when they don’t know the answer,” he said. And Monte was absolutely right.

I look back at my 2nd-edition books and wonder how I ever ran that game. But back then you fudged more. The rules were more like clunky, sometime arbitrary, and never systematic guidelines that you moved the narrative through. Opening the books typically caused more arguments than they solved, which IMO isn’t the case in the newer version of D&D.

Tangent about 2nd edition aside, two of the things we knew we needed do in a GM training and reward program is create a way for GMs to rate GMs taking account player feedback, and better criteria that better suites 3rd edition.

Just how we are going to do that, I am not yet at liberty to say. But I can tell you if you want to give a GM feedback…just do it. After the game tell the GM what you thought. Be constructive, don’t be vindictive if you think a GM error stymied your character, and be honest and diplomatic. Most GMs I know will appreciate it, analyze it, and take it to heart in order to improve their craft.

Will you get those who don’t? Yes. While I wish that players appreciated ever RPGA GM and what he or she brings to the table, I know that will not happen. And while I also wish that every RPGA GM would be well rested, ready to adjudicate fairly and diplomatically, and be totally on top of his or her game, I know that’s a pipedream too. In the end, I think we have more successes than we do failures, and we are working hard to make sure the ratio favors success even more in the future.

 

[Adso]

That's why I tend to run games at cons; it's all selfishness. When I run a game, I know that at the very least I'll amuse myself (and hopefully the players!), thus guaranteeing my own fun. Because of this I seldom have a "bad" con; I just enjoy the challenge of running an unfamiliar adventure for strangers, and I'm seldom disappointed. Even better, I blatantly yoink DMing and playing tricks from my players that I think are cool. The RPGA (hi, Adso!) is solely responsible for any DMing ability that I might have.

Hiya back there, Piratecat. And that Cat's got the right attitude here. Playing and GMing at Cons only strengthens the craft of playing and playing well.

And while I have never had the pleasure of playing with Piratecat at an RPGA event, I have only heard fantastic things about his play style and GMing style. And if his assertion is true, and the RPGA has contributed to his ability, then I feel like the organization has accomplished something truly special.

 

[Piratecat]

Not that I have strong feelings about this subject or anything, but would it be uncharitable for me to point out that you'd know how well I judged this year if people were filling out judge rating forms? *whistles innocently*

My assertion is absolutely true. At my very first con (Council of Five Nations, upstate NY, about 1989) veteran RPGA judge Reynolds Jones talked me into joining. In that three round tournament, I came in second, beaten out for first by Barcode here on these boards. He played a halfling better than anyone else I had ever seen, and I was in awe.

I totally yoinked all of his tricks - the voice, the mannerisms, the whole thing.

And that became a pattern. I learned from every player who impressed me, learned from every judge that did the same, and craved the player feedback I got on the voting forms. That's where I learned how to get quiet players involved, and how to pay attention to everyone equally. I'd be a much worse judge without the RPGA, there's no question in my mind - and considering that I have dozens of friends that I've met through the organization, I'd probably be a sullen loner without it as well.

So yup, I've made some craptastic gaffes as a judge, and I've seen some really painful moments as well... but less than you'd think. Find the people you respect, seek them out, run games yourself, and it's hard not to have a good time.

(Incidentally, Stephen, I never thanked you for getting back to me on that RPGA judging matter I emailed you about. It's very much appreciated.)

 

[alsih2o]

I think you could do worse than just taking your chances with EN Worlders. I did so in PC's Spycraft game and there was a mix of folks I wanted to game with for a long time (Clay, Pielorhino), people I was aware of but had no opinion about (Zarathustran, Emergent) and people I knew not in the least (Spider) ...and I'll tell you: they were all bottled dynamite.

One of the better groups I've ever played with, and without question the best con group I've ever played with.

this was one of only 2 con games i have ever played in. i fear the bar hasbeen set very high for my experience with dm's and gaming companions.

if i could only get zarathustran to hold me properly....

 

[Dinkeldog]

Funny -- I was really nervous about judging at a Con, so I actually took a week off from running my normal campaign and instead playtested the RPGA adventure with my normal group before I unleashed it on Con players. They were very good sports about it, and it really helped me in running for the convention.

Daniel

Daniel, which did you run? I ran two Green Regent adventures: Extermination and Grey Hunt.

 

[Shoon]

You know, there's a difference between a bad DM and a DM that doesn't care about the rules. If a DM and his group believe that, say, AoOs should be entirely scrapped, then they're entirely on their rights to do so. Also, someone isn't a bad DM just because he doesn't know the rules about charging or piercing damage at underwater conditions.

Bad DMs say, "A bunch of scary crap happens and you're, like, totally freaked out. Make a sanity check". I think I'm going to use this as my sig, TB

 

[pogre]

One of the benefits I received from running RPGA events at the con was watching how other groups attack problems. I also learned a new combat trick or two. I started my first couple of games out by saying the 3.5 rules were new to all of us and we could learn together. I learned a change in the rules in the very first game. The groups were cooperative, fun, and full of delightful people.

Quite a change from my first GenCon RPG gaming experience. It was in Geneva in 1983 and this gal told us our party of Hobbits was run down by a group of Orcs. We pointed out the movement of Hobbits and Orcs was the same (Old style D&D mind you). Yes, but they have longer legs she countered. By that logic Kareem Abdul-Jabarr should win the 100 Meters I argued. When she did not know who that was I gave up. We also fell in a pit trap that took half our hp during the adventure. You got 2 hp - now you got 1. You got 100 - now you got 50. Ah, the good old days.

Anyway for any person on the fence about playing in one of the RPGA events I would encourage you to give it a shot. I'm sorry I waited so long. Thanks to PC's plea for help before the Con I'm now hooked

BTW - Stephen wrote the adventure I ran, which was well done.

 

[Seule]

Story from Origins '03.
The DM sat down at our table of Living Greyhawk, and gave this as her introduction:
"I don't play LG, because I don't like it and it sucks. I run it to get into the Con. The adventure sucks too."
At least she didn't try to kill us all, as another DM I heard about did with every table he ran. It was a pretty disheartening opening however. Thankfully, with a good table, and not bad mod (from what I saw), and she actually being pretty good, the mod was fun.

On the subject of Living Greyhawk: LG has tried different treasure distribution and purchase rules over the years, and what it uses now is balanced, fair, and leads to a total lack of antagonism at the table. Various people think it could use tweaks for balance, mostly in what things are available with what frequency, but on the whole it works well, for (as far as I know) the largest RPG campaign ever run, by a wide margin.
The campaign staff is responsive, and being primarily volunteers, really do have the best interests of the players at heart. If someone has a problem with a DM, player or scenario, I'd suggest reporing it first to a Triad member, then to a Circle member. If Endgame was really that bad (I have no idea), then the writer should probably be told, as I've seen many messages from him, and he seems like a nice, reasonable guy. I'd also suggest not condemning the mod before reading it. It's quite possible that the DM was either in error or was hardballing it for you, or you were just unlucky.
LG is not my favorite Living campaign, but I believe it's a good one, and I play it the most. I encourage people to give it a try.

--Seule

 

[Pielorinho]

Daniel, which did you run? I ran two Green Regent adventures: Extermination and Grey Hunt.

I ran the Gray Hunt -- once on Friday afternoon, and once on Sunday morning. (Since it was my first Con, I figured running one adventure twice would be much easier than running multiple adventures once each).

It was reasonably fun -- not my preferred style of adventure, and in need of a couple of tweaks in order to make sense, but a reasonable mix of combat encounters and roleplaying. And most of the two groups I ran it for seemed to enjoy themselves.

Adso, I appreciate what you're saying about why the judging of DMs was scrapped, although that sentiment ("rule in my favor or I'll knock points off your judge score!") neatly encapsulates why I'll never be active in the RPGA. I certainly asked the table for feedback after each game; I just think it's easier for folks to give honest feedback on paper than in person.

It's not a huge deal to me, but I would've liked to find out what folks said about my judging when they weren't under social pressure to nod, smile, and thank me. I could give a rat about any sort of DM level or similar hoohah; I just want good feedback.

Daniel

 

[Lurch]

So what happened?
It was two years ago, is he still running?
Closer, man, I need closer.

AFAIK, he's still an Open judge; the folks in charge of the Open all vouched for him both personally & as a GM (according to them he had always been one of their better GM's in the past), and despite my irritation I decided to let the matter drop & sign up as a judge myself instead. In retrospect, the problems stemmed largely from his total non-familiarity with 3E, which he was instructed to correct if he wanted to continue judging, although I can only hope he updated his attitude as well as his ruleset.

As for me, I'll be judging for the RPGA at every con I'm able to attend from now until I die (& maybe longer, if I can ever get that lich process down pat ). I've previously gone to cons with the notion that I need a break from GM duties to relax as "just a player," but after hearing so many complaints from disappointed players about the scarcity of DM's at cons (in both number and quality) I feel I'm doing the community a disservice by not helping correct the problem.