WotC acknowledges 4th Edition Not for Everyone?

[BryonD]

Or, you could simply say that while WotC thinks 4e is for everyone, but knows that not everyone has realized it yet, and thus not switched (yet). Hardly marketing speak.

Well, I won't confuse "WotC" with "the guys who actually designed 4e", but the latter group very directly and bluntly stated that 4e was not for a significant fraction of the former 3E base.

 

[Jack99]

Well, I won't confuse "WotC" with "the guys who actually designed 4e", but the latter group very directly and bluntly stated that 4e was not for a significant fraction of the former 3E base.

I am talking about the meaning of the statement on the back of the new tiles. Not whether it's true or anything else.

 

[Fifth Element]

...? Are you referring to me? Because I don't think I said anything really horrible there...?

No, I think he wasn't referring to you.

 

[Fifth Element]

You don't have a right to your own opinion because you must follow those who don't give a damn about anything. Because it is easier for them to exist without having to think about things and bash those who do like to think about things.

Dude, you should know by now there's a difference between having your own opinion and calling everyone else's opinion stupid.

I wasn't disputing the bases being the problem

Then why the kobold-on-the-180mm-base comment? You were completely mispresenting the "it doesn't really matter" side with that comment, and it makes you seem obtuse when you do that.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Seriously aren't you the same person I always fall for?

You fall for him? Aaaawww...

 

[darjr]

yeah, we're all a bunch of jerks and pinheads.

a confession! I knew it!!!

 

[Obryn]

I have been using and working with minis for a long time. Many games depend on things being to best possible scale.

The point is if you are not going to do them right then why do them at all.

They can just as easily sell tokens as they could minis for less cost to produce, and less cost to consumer and get people to buy them.

I'd say it's because people like them. I'd gladly pay a premium for relatively attractive miniatures versus tokens - within reason. Just because a miniature fills exactly the same role as a token doesn't mean the miniature has no added value above a token.

And seriously? You build every single battle map out of HO-scale terrain? And this matters? Somehow, I'm skeptical.

You think the little things don't matter, then look at the wording mentioned on this product. Look at the death of DDM.

Apparently the little things do matter to enough people to effect a change.

The death of DDM had nothing whatsoever to do with crouching dwarves.

Now with CAD used in creating minis there is no excuse to not have things acled the same as the software can give heights for things so you know, if you take the time to not do it half-assed and make it not only look flashy and "cool" but at least get the sizes right.

Really? How much would that cost, in dollars, since you're the expert on how much time it would take?

Or are you calling WotC liars?

If base size is all that matter then the tokens can be made instead of bases and minis and they can be the right size.

Again look at this tile product and read the disclaimer.

So a tile is made for outdoors using 4th edition scale grids on the tiles.

1"=5'

Now what good will those grids or minis be for 1st edition where outside 1"=10 yards (30 feet=6 squares)

You are going to have some very funny measurement going on here.

How big is that tavern?

So scale matters depending on which edition you play, and with what minis you use.

As long as you use the current D&D miniatures product and the current 4th edition scale.

Buildings and dungeon rooms in 1e were comically huge. I'm going through ToEE and thinking, "Wow, his bedroom is 30x40. That's 1200 square feet..."

You can use exactly the same maps in 1e and 3e/4e without breaking anything.

Obviously nobody at WotC cares about a quality product since the claims are false, and they can't even understand the importance of some kind of scale for either the tiles, the older editions, or the minis.

That's because getting business from the 0.01% of people who demand exact scales on crouching dwarves will not offset the cost of implementing these kinds of QA checks. They're perfectly adequate for ... well, basically everyone but you. (And your 10,000 mysterious friends.)

And really, saying that WotC doesn't care about a quality product is ridiculous. They care about making a quality product, but your criteria are insane.

@Fifth_Element:

No they will not agree, because those who don't care, think those who do care are wrong for caring because it doesn't matter to them so it shouldn't matter to anyone. You don't have a right to your own opinion because you must follow those who don't give a damn about anything. Because it is easier for them to exist without having to think about things and bash those who do like to think about things.

Jumping in here - you're demanding that everyone else care about a topic. How is that fundamentally different from saying that you shouldn't care about a topic?

You have a right to your own opinion. I have a right to the opinion that your opinion is crazy.

-O

 

[justanobody]

Dude, you should know by now there's a difference between having your own opinion and calling everyone else's opinion stupid.


Then why the kobold-on-the-180mm-base comment? You were completely mispresenting the "it doesn't really matter" side with that comment, and it makes you seem obtuse when you do that.

Because a kobold mini that would require that size footprint would be stupidly out of scale with what kobolds are.

The base was used as a frame of reference for scale.

I didn't call anyone else's opinon stupid, just that they don't matter if they don't care about the scale.

If you take a poll about if people want things to scale and get these results:
Yes: 46%
No: 12%
Don't care: 42%

Which do you think matters most? Do you throw the undecided in with the "No" vote and just claim it isn't important enough?

What if that causes you to lose that 46% as customers?

If you throw out the "don't care" vote because they will probably buy it either way, and go with the "Yes" vote, you have a larger chance of keeping the greater range of customers.

So they are not stupid for not caring, but their undecided vote means little in the overall scheme of things because they don't care so they have no influence until a point comes up that they do care about.

And seriously? You build every single battle map out of HO-scale terrain? And this matters? Somehow, I'm skeptical.

Nobody is saying that you must use tokens, but if you don't care about scale and such when even open your mouth about it?

Check your facts. Treeborn, I think, was the one who is the HO gague railroader.

I use closer to O gauge when I must buy terrain they is already made, otherwise I make my own terrain. I am not as good as the guy who made a 3D Drow Ooutpost by far, but I get by; and would love to be able to build my dungeons with Master Maze pieces rather than flat maps.

The death of DDM had nothing whatsoever to do with crouching dwarves.

No the quality of the minis had absolutely nothing to do with its death. Did you listen to the latest podcast?

Really? How much would that cost, in dollars, since you're the expert on how much time it would take?

Did you listen to the latest podcast?

Do you know what CAD-CAM is? How long it has been in use and why? Even fast-track prototyping uses it along side 3D printers, rather than taking the time to actually sculpt out the mini/model by hand.

Buildings and dungeon rooms in 1e were comically huge.

I recall something about 4th edition where one of the designers said a room should be 8 squares wide.

Talk about comically huge having all rooms 1600' sq. Hell that is the same size as my floorplan! And it isn't just a single room.

And your 10,000 mysterious friends.

Yeah because in your little fantasy world, there aren't people who actually make a living off terrain and miniature making. I guess Racham, FASA, Ral Partha, Games Workshop, Lionel, Reaper, Hasslefree, and the list goes on for sevarl pages....none of them exist.

You have a right to your own opinion. I have a right to the opinion that your opinion is crazy.

I wish your state funded educators were at least educated themselves.

 

[Fifth Element]

Because a kobold mini that would require that size footprint would be stupidly out of scale with what kobolds are.

Indeed. But the topic of discussion is not minis that are stupidly out of scale. The topic are minis that are slightly out of scale. And the bases don't enter into it, since there isn't any mini-by-mini variation in base size (assuming they're the same size category).

I didn't call anyone else's opinon stupid, just that they don't matter if they don't care about the scale.

So in a discussion about whether small scale differences matter, the opinion that they don't matter is not relevant?

If you take a poll about if people want things to scale and get these results:
Yes: 46%
No: 12%
Don't care: 42%

Which do you think matters most? Do you throw the undecided in with the "No" vote and just claim it isn't important enough?

If I am marketing a series of minis, of course the "don't care" matters. Making scale more precise increases the cost of the minis, which increases the price.

And your poll would have to specify what "to scale" means to be useful. If you mean that all minis will be to 28mm scale, give or take 10%, that's something very different than meaning scale will be ignored entirely.

What if that causes you to lose that 46% as customers?

The point is, most people here seem to think you're significantly overstating what number this would be. If the results are more like 10% - 10% - 80%, then that 10% loss is probably worth it given the cost increase required to retain them.

 

[catsclaw227]

If you take a poll about if people want things to scale and get these results:
Yes: 46%
No: 12%
Don't care: 42%

Which do you think matters most? Do you throw the undecided in with the "No" vote and just claim it isn't important enough?

What if that causes you to lose that 46% as customers?

If you throw out the "don't care" vote because they will probably buy it either way, and go with the "Yes" vote, you have a larger chance of keeping the greater range of customers.

So they are not stupid for not caring, but their undecided vote means little in the overall scheme of things because they don't care so they have no influence until a point comes up that they do care about.

This argument isn't as valid as you might think.

Wording of a question will skew results dramatically. If someone just saw a poll that asked "Does scale matter for D&D tabletop gaming", you might get a fair number of Yes answers.

But if you asked them to read your posts in this thread and asked if scale matters in the way at matters to YOU, then I am guessing you would get a dramatically lower percentage, and therefore the context of your argument goes out the window. And don't say that context doesn't matter. For the sake of this discussion, it matters quite a bit.

Your need for scale and suggesting that the phrase "2d terrain" is bad or wrong for those that understand EXACTLY what it means is pretty fringe for a huge percentage of TRPG gamers.

I am starting to wonder if you know this already and you are just having fun poking with a stick.