WotC and brick and mortar retail stores - Greg Leeds weighs in

[Stormonu]

My start with D&D was actually getting the books from Kaybee toy store and Toys'R'us back in the early 80's (Red box set & AD&D PHB,DMG respectively). I was not aware of any game stores in the area where we were living (this was back in California).

Between about 88' to 01', I generally bought most of my stuff from a local FLGS in my area. However, with the rise of Amazon and E-bay, I started moving to buying online. At the same time, I don't think the hobby shop I went to has updated its stock; there's certainly nothing there now I would be interested in buying, and it doesn't have room to host games so I don't even bother going there anymore.

I think that a large percentage of gamers are in the same boat I am - there simply isn't a close enough game store (or of decent quality) to be concerned with supporting it over to just having games mail-ordered to them and playing at home.

 

[catsclaw227]

Maybe something WotC can do would be to delay allow brick-and-mortar game stores the privilege of selling books a week earlier than the release date, but not extend the same privelege to on-line retailers. Or maybe WotC can develop more exclusive products or services they make available only from game stores - maybe print-on-demand Dragon and Dungeon magazines, exclusive miniatures, exclusive dungeon tiles, limited edition versions of books (leather bound, etc.)... I don't know if those specific ideas would work, I'm not a marketing guru, but I think WotC needs to come up with something. The extinction of brick-and-mortar game stores is not in WotC's best interest.

Actually, WOTC already does some of this. If a FLGS hosts a premier event like the WWGD for PHB3, they get to sell the book like 10 days earlier than other retailers, including online retailers.

Our FLGS was selling PHB3, legally, almost 2 weeks before the street date.

 

[El Mahdi]

deleted

 

[Skallgrim]

I'd also like to point out something about Barnes & Noble and street dates.

First, I am a Barnes & Noble employee and have been for 13 years. I do know what I am talking about, when I am talking about that company.

There are "street dates", which are the dates that a company says a book will be released on.

Then, there are "Strict On-Sale" dates. These are different, at least in their terminology and usage at B&N.

For a Strict On-Sale (SOS) date title, we have signed a contract with the publisher agreeing to not sell a particular title until a particular day that they specify. This is normally ONLY done when that title has massive sales potential (sadly not the case for most D&D books). This is ALSO only done when all other retailers are also bound by the SOS date. This allows the publisher of say, the latest Dan Brown novel, to ship it out to stores all over the nation early, and then they all hold it in their stockrooms until the SOS date, and all sell it on the same day.

I'm not going to pretend that no Barnes & Noble has ever violated a SOS date. Heck, we've accidentally done it with a SOS title that shipped in a box with other non SOS titles ourselves. However, it can have serious repercussions (the publisher can decide, for example, to withhold other new releases from your store for a period of time).

Not a single D&D rulebook received since I started with the company has been a SOS title.

Now a "street date" is not such an agreement. A "street date" is simply the date that the publisher has told us that we should expect a book to be delivered on. It might be delivered before that date. It might be delivered on that date, or even after that date. Places near the distributor might get it early, and other places late. There is NO contractual agreement about breaking "street dates".

Breaking a "street date" simply means you got the book before expected, and you put it out for sale. There's no dishonesty, no malice, and no incompetence. Most books are put on sale when you get them. This is the default condition for books.

What WOTC did (which is very cool of them) is ship PHB3 to game stores that were holding D&D Encounter Events earlier than their other shipments. That way, these stores could get the book early, use it with their events, and capitalize on the sales. This is not uncommon at all in the Graphic Novel industry, where publishers may send books to dedicated comics retailers a month or more before they are available to B&N and other (even non-big box) book retailers.

While this did hurt the sales of PHB3 in "my" department, I really support this sort of strategy. I frequent a local very friendly game store, and I always want to see them succeed. They are very focused on being a destination for gamers, and do a great job.

I can't speak for any other bookstores, but I did want to try to correct the assumption that "breaking street date" = "breaking the rules". There are rules out there in the book business, but "street date" isn't one of them.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I live in Japan and I would LOVE to have a local game store to support. When I go back, I frequent one store, which is not really very good. No play space (but lots of wasted space on never-changing used books) with a few comics, miniatures, dice and a decent array of RPG books.

It is a place to buy, not to hang around or play in, and that is something I do not like about it.

To me a good store has a wide selection of goods, including things I do not personally play, and space to do events or just sit down and relax for a while. I can understand how owners hate getting undercut by Amazon and the like, and would strongly support WOTC selling to the online guys later, even though that would hurt me in Japan, where there is no other place to get the books and such I buy. But I would be willing to make that sacrifice.

BTW, Amazon Japan does not sell things early at the moment, though they vary on that, For a lot of the Complete books in 3.5, they wild them weeks early (See my threads on those books from way back when) but with 4E, they well it after street date, so those who get to game stores or get review copies see it a lot earlier than I do.

 

[Henry]

I'd also like to point out something about Barnes & Noble and street dates.

First, I am a Barnes & Noble employee and have been for 13 years. I do know what I am talking about, when I am talking about that company. (SNIP)

First of all, Skallgrim, thank you for posting this info - this is honestly the first time I've heard it explained.

Second, if you live in the Cary area, do we ever see you at any of the Raleigh NC Gamedays? If not, we'd love to see you there!

http://www.enworld.org/forum/north-carolina-game-day/

 

[samursus]

My anecdotal experiences:

None of my Amazon.ca D&D 4e purchases have arrived early, and PHB3, though pre-ordered, did not even SHIP until the release date (got it Mon). The FLGS I do go to rarely (out of town) has done very well since 4e, continually selling out of stock (straight from the owners mouth, and unfortunately in my own experience). The only FLGS in town, I have no idea because they suck and frankly I would be surprised if they sold much of anything.

Regarding the downfall? of the B&M stores... do we really want to subsidize them? I understand the value that many have mentioned, but that value has to be self-evident and reflected in the values of their customer base. All this tells me, for good or for ill, is that MANY customers just don't find enough value in the B&M experience to warrant paying a lot more for their RPG needs.

Who are we to judge whether its a good or bad thing? It is what it is, a reality based on existing practices. I think the B&M gaming stores will survive, many will fall, but a few here and there will survive, and thats where you will find your answers. Only the best will remain, and do we really need the others to? Yes it would be nice if every town had a great FLGS: clean, friendly, great selection, decent prices, no edition bias. But I know that even though my LGS sucks, I will most likely always be able to at least get the books I want at a great price from a business that has treated me right. So what if its online?

 

[The Little Raven]

Wow. That third post fails on so many levels.

And it's "renown," with no K.

 

[Dire Bare]

From the small amount of first- and second-hand access to retailers' internal discussions that I have, I think that the relative success/failure of 4E, and of these event-driven sales, is about 95% attributable to the attitude of the FLGS owner/staff toward 4E and, to a lesser degree, the official Organized Play initiative.

It seems that enthusiastic early adopters of 4E have had their expectations met with huge sales and big successful in-store events. Meanwhile, grudging 4E haters have had their expectations met with lackluster sales and ghost-town events.

This has been my experience as well. My local store supports Mt:G and Warhammer, and they regularly host game events and have a nice play area. When I'm in there playing, I often pick up some cards or some new minis because I'm having fun, the store is being good to me, and well, its right there! Even though I know I can get the Warhammer minis online cheaper (not so much the cards, though).

But for whatever reason, the store doesn't really promote D&D. Haven't talked to the owner or any of the employees about it, but they have one large shelf crammed full of used stuff, and two spin displays filled with D&D 4e and a mix of other current RPG games. No D&D Encounters, no D&D Game Days, not even Free RPG Day! Surprisingly, I purchase most of my D&D books online at a discount.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I shop at several game stores in the D/FW Metroplex, and they often have game books for sale sooner than some of the big national/international sellers. I've also noticed that, for some reason, D/FW seems to get stuff sooner than some other cities- I had my pre-ordered 3.5 set in hand more than a month before my buddy in Boston could find it at all.

Talking to some of the owners, I've found that they really do appreciate being able to do this. Its one of the few advantages they have, these days.

Those that can host gaming events do so, and when they do, they tend to make sales. However, some simply don't have the room, or do so at the sacrifice of breadth or depth of stock.

For example, I was recently recommended a store in Lewisville (one of Dallas' many suburbs). I went in, and found the staff to be knowledgeable and helpful. They were hosting some kind of combat minis game tournament at the time.

All well and good- demos and tournaments are great for sales, generally speaking- but their actual stock was slim.

Sure, they could ORDER anything I wanted (so they claimed) but if I wanted to buy anything beyond a few different minis lines or 4Ed D&D and a couple of other RPGs- really only a smallish bookshelf's worth- I surely couldn't get it there that day.

Still, the quality of service and the environment (coupled with what I suspect to be a fairly low rent) may keep them solvent.

The scary thing about that for me, though, is this: I've seen several tiny stores like this, and every one shares two qualities. First, their quality of service is high. Second, their in-store selection is limited to 4ED D&D and maybe 3-5 other RPGs, plus some cards, minis wargames and board games. They're almost WotC stores.

IOW, D&D is probably their major seller...and if that game's popularity wanes significantly, it could be hard for them to remain open.