Pathfinder 1E WotC desperately needs to learn from Paizo and Privateer Press

[roguerouge]

Just seconding your take, OP. I've read enough modules by WotC to know that I don't trust them to consistently put out useable modules and I know that I have to have modules to have a useable system, lest I get DM burnout. Goodman Games puts out a great filler module, but I can't build a campaign off their style of modules. So, that pretty much put the kibosh on me DMing 4e.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Just seconding your take, OP. I've read enough modules by WotC to know that I don't trust them to consistently put out useable modules and I know that I have to have modules to have a useable system, lest I get DM burnout. Goodman Games puts out a great filler module, but I can't build a campaign off their style of modules. So, that pretty much put the kibosh on me DMing 4e.

I have something to say about your problem which consists of something I previously posted in this very topic.

If only there was some website out there that decided to put out a series of adventures. Adventures so epic you could publish a serialized novel based of them on that very same website. Wouldn't it be awesome if they came bi-monthly too? And there would be an online forum where you could talk about them or other D&D related stuff! Man, if only a website like that existed; it'd be sweet.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I have something to say about your problem which consists of something I previously posted in this very topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelSomething View Post
If only there was some website out there that decided to put out a series of adventures. Adventures so epic you could publish a serialized novel based of them on that very same website. Wouldn't it be awesome if they came bi-monthly too? And there would be an online forum where you could talk about them or other D&D related stuff! Man, if only a website like that existed; it'd be sweet.

Link?

 

[Jack99]

I have something to say about your problem which consists of something I previously posted in this very topic.

You need to be more obvious if you want other people to understand you

What MichaelSomething means is that you should grab War of the Burning Sky, made our very own ENworld. WotBS will rock your world and smoke your cigarettes afterwards - it's that good, compared to what else it out there.

 

[Windjammer]

4E MMs are just that - manuals, for direct table use. They fall flat for pretty much everything else. They are my favourite 4E books by a far shot, but that's because I've got shelves full of material on which to base the creatures' backgrounds. For newer DMs I guess the theme-heavy monster books on undead and dragons are a better place.

By the way, the OP's standard for background rich monster books shouldn't be Privateer - it should be Black Industry/FFG. The monster books for Warhammer Fantasy/40K (Old World Bestiary, Creatures Anathema) are a notch above the Monsternomicon's.

4E published adventures diverge very little from the Dungeon Delve recipe - here's a collection of encounters, utilize them as you see fit. Again, it depends what you want from a published adventure. If intriguing NPCs and locales, not to mention a novel plot line with a good twist or two are imperative before you play a module - then you need to write these yourself. From scratch. 4E mods don't provide them, and sometimes the result is refreshingly (if a bit involuntarily) comic. In fact, I like Revenge of the Giants so much in that vein, that I'm going to play it soon with my group unmodified... shudder... and I've conveyed to them that they're in for the Kung-Fu Panda of D&D modules.

Turning now - again - to the OP's point of comparison... I've run quite a few of Paizo's modules. And they can't be run out of the book either without a lot of prep work - I've often found I need at least a week's time (better: two weeks) to really get on top of the material before I can start running it. And that still involves doing lot of write-ups, adding in read-alout texts etc., make good use of cross-references (with post-it's etc) and so on.

In the end then, I always find myself doing a lot of prep work on published material anyway. It's a bit hard to find stuff that suits that work process, since it basically means you need to look for stuff that serves as a good foundation. Name-dropping companies, or even product lines, doesn't really solve that matter. At all.

 

[Umbran]

Link?

War of the Burning Sky

Become a Community Supporter for EN World at just $3 per month, and you get WoBS as a side benefit.

 

[delericho]

I've run quite a few of Paizo's modules. And they can't be run out of the book either without a lot of prep work - I've often found I need at least a week's time (better: two weeks) to really get on top of the material before I can start running it.

I agree with this. Running a pregenerated adventure doesn't eliminate the preparation required for a game. It does vastly cut it down, IME, but does still leave quite a lot to do.

Name-dropping companies, or even product lines, doesn't really solve that matter. At all.

I don't agree with this. When indicating what you don't like, it's generally better to also indicate a way to improve. And providing an example of something you think works well is generally better than trying to describe the individual elements that make up the solution.

"Give me something like this," is a much easier route to a solution than, "give me something that has elements A through G, each of which I will now spend 500 words trying to define."

(Of course, if you don't agree that this is the way to go, then offering that as a solution doesn't really help. But in that case, what do you think should be done to improve 4e's adventures?)

 

[Windjammer]

"Give me something like this," is a much easier route to a solution than, "give me something that has elements A through G, each of which I will now spend 500 words trying to define."

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I just thought that there's too much quality variation among every single product line I can think of to say that 4E material should emulate any of them.

For instance, I've bought and read (and partially DMed) all SEVEN adventure paths Paizo published for D&D 3.5 (they lost me with Pathfinder) - deliberately left out 3 individuals mods though - and that lot certainly displays all the heights and pitfalls of module design.

 

[Obryn]

"They would have to cut back/enlargen the book/raise the price" doesn't work when the damn thing is almost half white space to begin with

4e's books - especially the MM - are made to be used as references at the table. A DM can (and I have) easily run monsters straight from the book.

The larger font and the abundant whitespace greatly improve the book's utility during play. It's easier to find monsters, keep track of them, and read them at an arm's length. But yes, there's less stuff to read while you're sitting on the can, as a result.

-O

 

[Shazman]

"They would have to cut back/enlargen the book/raise the price" doesn't work when the damn thing is almost half white space to begin with

Exactly. Fill in some of that white space with ecology, background, and better descriptions.