WotC has a milking machine now (Draconomicon I)

[Fallen Seraph]

My post is very short but it is really all my opinion on the subject has:

If each book has all relevant crunch and fluff in it to cover the subjects of that book without referencing to another book (besides the basic rulebooks of course) I am happy.

If leaving things out till a later book so they can be done correctly and completely, I am happy.

I am NOT happy when everything is crammed into one book, and then you have to pick up the pieces with other supplements.

So for 4E so far I am happy. The PHB is including everything for the classes in it and as such the later supplements for other classes if following the same formula will have everything in it for those classes.

For the Draconomicon, if it has everything in it for Chromatic Dragons and then the following has everything in it for Metallic I am happy.

I wouldn't be happy if there was just one and not enough space to include everything so there has to be future supplements or back-referencing to non corebooks.

 

[delericho]

I have no idea what this post means. Obviously, epochrpg doesn't consider "leaving things out" to be kosher. 4e is obviously and expressly leaving things out of the core 3 rulebooks and putting them in supplements later. There's evidence for it. That's what they SAID they were doing.

Agreed.

The question is mostly if that leaves a "complete" game. I think it does, because I don't think you need much for a complete D&D game. epochrpg seems to disagree.

I disagree as well. The key weakness that is being left is in the Wizard spell-list - summons, enchantments and polymorphs are apparently going to be stripped right back, and slated for later inclusion. The reason stated for this (that they want to make the Wizard less a jack-of-all-trades, and give the speciality Illusionist/Enchanter/Summoner chance to shine) is reasonably sound... but it still leaves a gaping hole in the game, IMO.

I'm really not keen on that. (I'm also not keen on the "spreading out the core" strategy for the rest of it, but wouldn't argue that a loss of Frost Giants, for instance, leaves the game 'incomplete'.)

Still, that's off-topic for the thread, so I'll say no more.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Okay, anti-4e people aren't even trying anymore. Come on, people, stop phoning it in! I know you can do better!

 

[RigaMortus2]

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[dm4hire]

I can kind of see Epoch's stance here about the cutting of classes and races, it makes it sound incomplete by turning around and saying they'll be in another source book. The classes and races in 3.5 were pretty much everything from 3.0 and 2.0 and for the most part 1st with a few exceptions and a couple of additions.

I think if WotC would have actually got player input instead of saying, "well we talked to our 'playtesters' and all the players who talked with us at conventions and this is what we came up with." Those playtesters and players tend to be the same people every convention. They weren't the entire player base. A small percentage doesn't represent the entire community. WotC should have announced, "Hey we're going to come out with a new edition. We want your input. Answer these questions in Dragon or Dungeon mailing them in, fill out our surveys at conventions, or go to our website and take the survey there." They could have even just disguised it by doing surveys about different parts. True they have product surveys in their books but those aren't comprehensive and most people are ticked about them because they glue them in the middle of their book. Then they should have set a finite number of responses to wait on or at least a decent period of response time to get more accurate responses, say 3-6 months. Pour over the data and post the results so you get even more feed back (i.e. 75% prefer Tiefling over Gnomes or this is the ranking of the races).

Instead we have what we have now. People asking what happened to my class/race and why? I don't mind they asked playtesters or players at conventions, but if you post a summery stating "The following survey was taken with 10,000 responses sent in and this is the results." Most people won't argue those kind of numbers. Just telling me you asked playtesters or players at conventions doesn't cut it when you could be talking about 20 or 30 people. No one can argue against it like I said if the majority of us turn around and ask "well I did the survey did you?" Cause I know everyone on here would have taken a survey if they'd know about it. It would have been on every message board and group on and off line.

If you give the people what they want they will be happy and keep quiet. If you don't ask them what they want you find yourself facing the guillotine asking "What? Was there something wrong with the cake?" So take note WotC for 5.0, do a survey before cutting things out.

 

[The Little Raven]

So take note WotC for 5.0, do a survey before cutting things out.

WotC does more market research than anyone else in the industry. They know their customers far better than anyone else, and far better than people seem to realize. It was feedback which told them that Half-Orcs and Gnomes were the least popular races, and Tieflings and <Dragon Dudes> were far more popular.

 

[Mortellan]

Okay, anti-4e people aren't even trying anymore. Come on, people, stop phoning it in! I know you can do better!

Moo.

 

[delericho]

Okay, anti-4e people aren't even trying anymore. Come on, people, stop phoning it in! I know you can do better!

What's the point? The WotC programming is just too strong. Even now, with the announcement of the milking machine (and the consequence that 4e will literally suck), people are still lining up to declare this the best idea since making a "Highlander" sequel. They've even gotten to poor Reaper Steve.

I can only assume The Rouse's shirt has some mighty hypnotic properties.

 

[dm4hire]

That's what WotC tells us. But I have never seen a statistical break down of these surveys they supposedly conduct. I've been to GenCon numerous times, I've read various Dragon, Dungeon, and message boards with no trace of said surveys. I've heard the urban legends repeatedly throughout my gaming life how TSR or WotC did surveys but have never seen them. The ones I have seen only ask about books or products, was this useful to you, what did you think of the artwork, how much will you pay for something like this? The only questions I've ever seen don't support the changes.

I'm saying in my opinion the way WotC is presenting the so called info makes it sound more like a cover up. We've made this change; you don't like it? Well, uh, well we asked people and they said they liked it.

BTW I support 4th ed, I just refuse to be a sheep led happily to the slaughter.

 

[The Little Raven]

That's what WotC tells us. But I have never seen a statistical break down of these surveys they supposedly conduct. I've been to GenCon numerous times, I've read various Dragon, Dungeon, and message boards with no trace of said surveys. I've heard the urban legends repeatedly throughout my gaming life how TSR or WotC did surveys but have never seen them. The ones I have seen only ask about books or products, was this useful to you, what did you think of the artwork, how much will you pay for something like this? The only questions I've ever seen doesn't support the changes.

TSR didn't do market research, so whoever told you that was feeding you an urban legend. That's exactly what boggled WotC when they purchased the company: there was a complete lack of customer information, which meant that TSR was 'going by their gut,' rather than any real information. WotC, on the other hand, conducts massive market research, which is why they were able to not only revitalize a comatose game, they were able to make it more profitable than it had ever been in the past. Read Ryan Dancey's account of the purchase of TSR, and what their market research told them about what people wanted.

I also bet you've never seen surveys or results about the numerous other products (like cars) that change over time, incorporate new features, remove old ones, and so forth, but your ignorance of their existence does not invalidate their existence. It just means that you don't get access to information that is, quite frankly, noone's business except the company.

I'm saying in my opinion the way WotC is presenting the so called info makes it sound more like a cover up. We've made this change; you don't like it? Well, uh, well we asked people and they said they liked it.

Are you suggesting that WotC is being dishonest about market research (which would be accusing them of fraud, since they are the subsidiary of a publicly traded corporation)? If so, without evidence, that's awfully close to libel.