WotC is *NOT* Evil: THE FINALE

[Gloomshroud]

I am very upset right now. The below quotations are copied and pasted directly from my email inbox. This is regarding a request for permission to:

1.) Use the Dark Sun Campaign Setting book images (which I purchased) on Obsidian Portal.
2.) Use printed images from the same at my table at my FLGS.

First, my request:

[sblock]To whom it may concern:

I am sending this at the suggestion of a customer service representative(whose name escapes me, regrettably). The reason I am writing is to request permission to use images and logos which are intellectual property and copyrights of Wizards of the Coast (WotC).

Specifically, on an online and offline basis, I would like to make use of images of the Dark Sun campaign setting. I am a player of 16 years and I still possess the original Dark Sun "box set." I have recently converted to 4E and would like to use images from the Dark Sun 4E Campaign Setting as well.

I have a profile on Obsidian Portal (www.obsidianportal.com/akara) that I've been using for my homebrew campaign. Now, we have a local gaming store where I have purchased the Core Books as well as Dark Sun material where I plan on running a campaign. I plan on joining the RPGA this week (at our next D&D Encounters). My local store is <edited here, sorry>

The images I would like to use are those which reflect the nature of Athasian geography, tone, and mood. I would be using a mixture of the new and old images to achieve this affect both on my website and at the table. Examples of such pictures are found in Chapter 5 of the Campaign Setting (specifically Tyr, p. 135, Draj p. 150, Road of Kings p. 175, the large fold-out map in the back [portions of it, at any rate]), as well as "flavor" images like those on p. 78.I am also requesting permission to use the D&D 4E log and the Dark Sun logo (both old and new).

Now, the use of these is for the sole purpose of adding flavor and enhancement to my game for the benefit of my players. No profit would be made. In fact, I would be *spending* money were I to upgrade on OP. I would be using these images on Obsidian Portal (Obsidian Portal - Campaign websites for Dungeons and Dragons and other tabletop RPGs) and in the store (which already has Advanced status itself). The physical manifestations would include: printed maps, character portraits for NPCs , and possibly monster drawings, as I plan on purchasing the Creature Catalog as soon as my store stocks it.

I thank you for your consideration of this matter, and I hope that you would take advantage of this free advertisement. I am a long-time fan of the setting, and am very glad to see it back in the wonderful new vision of D&D. The artwork is fantastic, and I really hope that you will allow me to bring the world to life for my players, as most of them are still unlearned in the ways of harsh Athas. I strive to show them a "world of fire and sand" (Dark Sun Campaign Setting, p. 4, ~The Wanderer's Journal) and would be greatly pleased if I had WotC's blessing in this.[/sblock]

Now, their first response:

[sblock]I apologize for the confusion. Regarding the usage of our intellectual property; unfortunately, Wizards is unable to grant you permission to use its intellectual property in the manner you have requested.

You can however find images available for use on your site in our fan site kit at the following location under the downloads section: http://www.wizards.com/Company/Press.aspx

Please let us know if you have any more questions!
We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire.

To login to your account, or update your question please click here.[/sblock]

To this, I responded, after finding the kit utterly useless for Dark Sun:
[sblock]
To whom it may concern:

I have been attempting to politely seek resolution on an ongoing issue for some time now. After I was courteously, but firmly, rejected regarding the HARMLESS use of WotC IP (with no reasoning offered), I attempted to contact the press manager on this issue to get a simple explanation.

To date, I have heard NOTHING. After two emails and dead-end phone calls. What is the meaning of this totally unacceptable treatment? I demand explanation, or I will discontinue any further support of WotC and switch to Paizo. This would break my heart, but I am absolutely furious at the poor treatment I've received at this point.

I can show you a link to a COMMERCIAL site which uses your images indiscriminately, and has a mere DISCLAIMER saying "I hope you guys don't mind," and there is nothing done. I have attempted to approach you all in a professional and humble manner, to be rejected wholesale. This is completely unacceptable. I am being punished for trying to do the right thing. It is SO easy to get away with improper usage of your images, but I have not done so out of RESPECT. Please show me the same.

Also, please don't bother replying if it's a pre-written, regurgitated mishmash of obsequious pleasantries. I do not appreciate that, and I want a REAL response from a REAL person. Not some placatory "general use" response. I don't need platitudes, I need an answer.[/sblock]

And their final word on the issue:
[sblock]
Sorry about the back and forth. I understand the frustration and inconvenience this can cause. Unfortunately we are unable to discuss why we do not give permission for our images to be used. Wizards of the Coast cannot provide you with information on our intellectual property rights nor can we give you advice or direction on how to proceed with your own project as it might relate to our properties. (Italics mine.)

Thank you for your understanding in this matter, Brandon.
We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire.

To login to your account, or update your question please click here. [/sblock]

And here is MY final word:[sblock]
This is a joke, right? You're not really denying me firstly, a very simple and harmless request and secondly, not even offering a good explanation as to WHY? That is pathetic. Now I know what Erik Mona is so mad about. Hello Paizo, bye bye WotC. I am going to boycott your products personally and dissuade my gaming friends from purchasing your products. While the products are alright, the rest of it is awful. Just awful. I have totally lost faith in your company, and I am sure that Mr. Gygax and Anderson are rolling in their graves at this type of travesty, as I'm sure I'm not the only one who has met with such a debacle. I have FAITHFULLY been a fan for WELL over a DECADE. And THIS is the thanks I am given? To the Abyss with you, then. I'm pulling out Pathfinder.[/sblock]

While I am fully aware that my last response looks whiny and troll-esque, I opted for complete transparency. Surely you can understand why a "No, you can't have it cuz it's MINE" response was less than ideal? I had even ACCEPTED their judgement, but I wanted to know WHY. Surely THAT wasn't too much to ask? Apparently...it was. Anyone else had a similar experience?

 

[Shazman]

It's WotC. What did you expect?

 

[renau1g]

There reasons are legal. I'm sure the instruct their CSR's not to discuss legal issues that are likely far beyond their knowledge base. Paizo has a similar policy. You can't just expect to use their IP without their permission. Paizo wouldn't even allow us to use Golarian as a setting for a PbP game as its their IP. Companies got to protect it as they won't see how you use it and are likely afraid of it being misrepresented and damaging "the brand". I used to deal with marketing people all the time and a tremendous amount of money is spent ensuring that the right message is sent out with regards to the brand and how its portrayed.

Shazman - I don't believe you're adding much to the discussion with the post. Also, I find that in many of the discussions around the 4e boards or about WotC you have a very negative attitude about the company and bash them regardless of the topic.

Also, I might suggest waiting a bit as I'm sure the fansite kit is one of the last things updated. Who knows? maybe your e-mail will spur them to update.

 

[Gloomshroud]

There reasons are legal. I'm sure the instruct their CSR's not to discuss legal issues that are likely far beyond their knowledge base. Paizo has a similar policy. You can't just expect to use their IP without their permission. Paizo wouldn't even allow us to use Golarian as a setting for a PbP game as its their IP. Companies got to protect it as they won't see how you use it and are likely afraid of it being misrepresented and damaging "the brand". I used to deal with marketing people all the time and a tremendous amount of money is spent ensuring that the right message is sent out with regards to the brand and how its portrayed.

Shazman - you seriously should stop trolling about the 4e boards, you really add no value to any discussion ever about WotC except that you dislike them and then bash them

Also, I might suggest waiting a bit as I'm sure the fansite kit is one of the last things updated. Who knows? maybe your e-mail will spur them to update.

Thank you for the constructive feedback. It is heartening to know that Paizo et al have similar policies. If something is "standard practice," my mind seems more willing to accept that. Seeing it from THAT viewpoint makes it less difficult a pill to swallow. However, I did specify that this would be used in my FLGS, which is WotC all the way. If I did misrepresent, it wouldn't last. And, my wepgage is public and viewable by all. My gamestore owner has my email, and WotC has my email. If at ANY time they felt I were misrepresenting, they could shoot me a C&D (as they apparently are wont to do) and the owner could call off my game. So...what's the excuse?

It's WotC. What did you expect?

Humph. You're like the 12th person to say that...

 

[Scholar & Brutalman]

I think your second response looks pretty damn whiny and troll-esque as well. Here's what they told you:

unfortunately, Wizards is unable to grant you permission to use its intellectual property in the manner you have requested.

This means no. It's what I'd call unambiguous. They are not obliged to give you stuff for free, even if you really want them to.

I'd sum up the discussion you posted not as "Why WotC is Evil" so much as "Why OP is whiny." My suggestion is to stop whining.

 

[Gloomshroud]

I think your second response looks pretty damn whiny and troll-esque as well. Here's what they told you:



This means no. It's what I'd call unambiguous. They are not obliged to give you stuff for free, even if you really want them to.

I'd sum up the discussion you posted not as "Why WotC is Evil" so much as "Why OP is whiny." My suggestion is to stop whining.

First off, let me start by thanking your for your feedback. Even negative feedback can be constructive. I stated quite plainly that my last post may look whiny. So, no surprise there. I also stated that I went ahead and posted it anyways because to do NOT so would be less transparent.

Now, to treat your comments: No, no company is obliged to do anything, barring legal agreements. This is NOT about what they MUST do or even SHOULD do. It's about what they COULD do. I am a customer, and have been for nearly two decades. It's people like you and I who make companies prosperous...or not. I work in customer service myself, and I can tell you that a company like WotC isn't much of anything without a customer. So yes, while they have EVERY right to say no...that doesn't mean they should. Especially considering that I wasn't exactly asking them for the family farm...

 

[LuckyAdrastus]

Is this serious?

So, you emailed Customer Service, and asked them if you could re-publish WotC Intellectual Property online. Customer Service responded that you cannot. Then you asked them for a legal explanation, and they responded that they aren't lawyers, they're just doing what the lawyers say.

So now you say, you're going to play Pathfinder? [Mentioned at the end of the last spoiler tag]. Because non-lawyers at a company that makes its money selling IP don't want to give you permission to use their IP in ways the lawyers haven't approved to do?

Seriously?

Also, it's threads like this which give me the impression that no one actually plays Pathfinder because they like it, they only play it because of some innate disdain for the company that published D&D. I presume that isn't actually true, but you could sure get that impression from reading the boards.

 

[Fifth Element]

I demand explanation, or I will discontinue any further support of WotC and switch to Paizo

Do you really expect them to react well to comments like this? Their first response was unequivocal, and your response was belligerent. You don't have any right to demand an explanation of their IP policies, and writing things like this is just going to make them stop listening to you entirely. People writing aggressive and demanding emails are not worth anyone's time.

There's no way you're going to get a company to comment on its IP policies by sending an email to their customer service. It's just not going to happen. They don't need an excuse, and they don't owe you an explanation.

I'd suggest changing the thread title to something less inflammatory and more accurate. I see one party being unreasonable in that email exchange, and it isn't WotC.

 

[Gloomshroud]

Is this serious?

So, you emailed Customer Service, and asked them if you could re-publish WotC Intellectual Property online. Customer Service responded that you cannot. Then you asked them for a legal explanation, and they responded that they aren't lawyers, they're just doing what the lawyers say.

So now you say, you're going to play Pathfinder? [Mentioned at the end of the last spoiler tag]. Because non-lawyers at a company that makes its money selling IP don't want to give you permission to use their IP in ways the lawyers haven't approved to do?

Seriously?

Also, it's threads like this which give me the impression that no one actually plays Pathfinder because they like it, they only play it because of some innate disdain for the company that published D&D. I presume that isn't actually true, but you could sure get that impression from reading the boards.

Thank you for your response. Your perspective is a unique one, and honestly not one that I had considered. I knew that there would be legal barriers, naturally, but not to this extent. Also, I would be more than willing to discuss this with a "suit," as I REALLY want to use those pictures. I did, after all, purchase the product. As it were, I only wish to "publish" on a small scale, for NO PROFIT whatsoever. In effect, as long as I don't suck as a DM, it's free advertising. Also, up until today, I had nothing but warm fuzzies for WotC.

 

[dvvega]

Unfortunately, although I dislike people in general not giving valid reasons for actions, S&B is right - they essentially told you no because it is ours. There is no reason entered into because they do not have to give one. They have the power to say no over their own IP.

Hopefully as renau1g stated they may get around to updating the Fan Site Kit (I honestly think there should be 1 per world and generic one) but until then you can perhaps find real world images that help you - for example the Atacama desert in Chile is as barren as you can get and scenes from Machupichu or other Incan/Mayan/Aztec cities or buildings would go a long way to give great examples of cities. As well as Morocco.

Run the images through some Photoshop/Gimp filters and see what you can come up with.

As an aside - do you think they really would care for a person to threaten them to go somewhere else? The world is full of people who dislike them already, one more isn't going to change anything.

And if I am not mistaken don't they make money from Pathfinder because it is based on 3.5? So you would still be paying them in some way. If I am wrong then ignore this comment.

D