WotC is *NOT* Evil: THE FINALE

[Fifth Element]

I UNDERSTAND THEY DON'T *HAVE* TO DO IT! That's not the point. The point I'm making is that they were unreasonable in their offhanded dismissal.

That was not an offhanded dismissal. I say again: did you really expect for their customer service department to discuss their internal IP policies with some random customer sending them an email?

A dismissal would have been "No, don't be stupid." Their response was to-the-point, polite, and offered you an alternative (which you understandably did not feel was appropriate for your purposes).

But even after that first response, you became belligerent. Seriously, after two whole emails and phone calls, you said "What is the meaning of this totally unacceptable treatment? I demand explanation, or I will discontinue any further support of WotC and switch to Paizo." That statement is full of entitlement and anger. It was not a reasonable response, and basically guaranteed that any subsequent query on your part would not be taken seriously.

Again, I'll ask you to change to thread title to something accurate. A company not giving away its IP for free does not make it evil. A company having policies about their IP and not discussing them with every random person who sends them an email does not make it evil. You need to get some perspective here.
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[Pbartender]

Again, I do understand that they don't have to because they own it. But, I didn't HAVE to share my sandwhich with my brother...but I did because I cared.

The difference here is that your sandwich is not a unique intellectual commodity that you are selling so that you can pay the salary of yourself and your employees that you hired to make that sandwich, and also that your brother is not one of millions of rather faceless consumers.

WotC has learned from past mistakes in not only the gaming industry, but publishing as a whole... You have to keep tight control of your intellectual property, because once you establish a lenient precedent, you open the flood gates and will never regain control ever again.

Every two-bit pastiche artist will say, "HE used THAT stuff, why can't I use THIS stuff?"

In other words, it's a legal marketplace version of "once bitten, twice shy".

 

[the Jester]

IANAL but there's a concept in law that you have to defend your trademarks. If they let people use their stuff for free, they weaken the argument that they have sole rights over it.

However, I did specify that this would be used in my FLGS, which is WotC all the way. If I did misrepresent, it wouldn't last. And, my wepgage is public and viewable by all.

This doesn't matter at all. If anything, the web page makes it worse because anyone can come along and swipe their art from your page.

The tone of your second email certainly isn't likely to get you what you want from anyone. I understand that you're upset about this, but WotC has no choice if they want to continue to control their IP. And if a CS representative starts talking legal stuff with you, he is going to stick his foot in his mouth very quickly and give you all kinds of bad info; that's why they aren't allowed to talk about it.

 

[Wik]

Hmm. Well put. I don't really have anything for this comment. I will say, however, that I am not asking for the "recipe" for anything. I just want to, to steal your analogy, SHARE the burger I already bought with my friends.

Share away! I share my books with my friends all the time. If one of us has a "fringe" book (say, the Astral Plane book) no one else would buy it. And I expect WotC knows this.

But, to go back to my analogy, you can't "share" a burger over the internet. If you could, it would surely spell the destruction of the entire human race.

To put it another way, you probably would have had no problem with printing off those copies and displaying them in the store for game use - that counts as "for personal use only". But you're running into an area where you're assuming ownership over something, even by proxy, in a setting that is very deregulated. And there is a LOT of stolen gaming art out there.

While you may be perfectly honest (I have no doubt that you are) WotC does not know this. You could be one of those people who would think "Hey, wotc let me do Xwith their art, so I could probably do Y, too!" and start putting it into for-sale media.

And of course, there's always the "if I give one to you, I have to give one to EVERYBODY" problem.

 

[Fifth Element]

Hmm. Well put. I don't really have anything for this comment. I will say, however, that I am not asking for the "recipe" for anything. I just want to, to steal your analogy, SHARE the burger I already bought with my friends.

This is why it's called Intellectual Property. It's not a tangible thing, and cannot be treated as such. Once that burger's eaten, it's gone. Once you put an image on your website, who knows how many people will download and distribute it.

Also, it is not using something for "nothing." I already shelled out 40 clams for the book...but I'd even be willing to PAY for the right to use a couple of those images.

That's not what you paid for, of course. You paid for the physical product, not for the right to reproduce the artwork within. They might not even have the right to let you use the images in the way you describe, as pointed out above. We don't know what their contracts with the artists look like, so they might be unable to grant your request, even if they w3ere inclined to do so.

 

[Fifth Element]

As to the IP use, I think one problem could be the fact that you were planning to post the images on Obsidian Portal. While you would not be profiting from this use of WoTC's IP, Obsidian Portal most certainly might. First, they'd be getting money from you for the use of the images. Second, other users who see the image and think "Hey cool" then add their own purchases of upgraded accounts. Next OP might be able to sell more advertising as their site draws more hits, thus making more money.

Well spotted, and very good point.

 

[Gloomshroud]

That was not an offhanded dismissal. I say again: did you really expect for their customer service department to discuss their internal IP policies with some random customer sending them an email?

A dismissal would have been "No, don't be stupid." Their response was to-the-point, polite, and offered you an alternative (which you understandably did not feel was appropriate for your purposes).

But even after that first response, you became belligerent. Seriously, after two whole emails and phone calls, you said "What is the meaning of this totally unacceptable treatment? I demand explanation, or I will discontinue any further support of WotC and switch to Paizo." That statement is full of entitlement and anger. It was not a reasonable response, and basically guaranteed that any subsequent query on your part would not be taken seriously.

Again, I'll ask you to change to thread title to something accurate. A company not giving away its IP for free does not make it evil. A company having policies about their IP and not discussing them with every random person who sends them an email does not make it evil. You need to get some perspective here.
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Yes, I do feel entitled to something. I have only been playing 4E for a couple months and I've already spent a ridiculous sum on their products. That DOES entitle me to good support. I'm sorry, but I work in customer service. And this whole "give away for free" idea is just wrong. I have paid good money for this product. Also, I have made no excuse for my stubborn reaction. But, as a certain Jew said

"Let he who is without sin take up the first stone."

Haven't you ever got mad and said something belligerent? I will change the thread title if this good rapport continues. This has been enlightening.

 

[Gloomshroud]

This is why it's called Intellectual Property. It's not a tangible thing, and cannot be treated as such. Once that burger's eaten, it's gone. Once you put an image on your website, who knows how many people will download and distribute it.


That's not what you paid for, of course. You paid for the physical product, not for the right to reproduce the artwork within. They might not even have the right to let you use the images in the way you describe, as pointed out above. We don't know what their contracts with the artists look like, so they might be unable to grant your request, even if they w3ere inclined to do so.

Ahhh. Well. THAT I have nothing to argue about. Also, the poster above who mentioned that Obsidian Portal could benefit (as well as my game store, for that matter) is something I had not considered, either. So...that being said, I will rest my case, admitting that I was-in point of fact-quite wrong to so harshly judge.

 

[renau1g]

I think you're fine to print it out and use it at the FLGS as that might fall under their policy about home use. IANAL so take it with a grain of salt.

I don't think the OP was that bad, there's been far worse people here throwing stones at WotC. Heck, its the interwebs this is a pretty mild post for what I expected with the title

I thought this thing would be locked down within 1/2 hours

Edit: Oh...I've certainly gotten upset over stupid stuff... when Sears wouldn't take back a return from me I called the BBB and was quite irate... man looking back on that I feel like a tool. However, unlike the OP, I did it in person with the store manager "I'm boycotting you blah, blah, blah" hahaha...he just shrugged and said "sorry to hear that"

 

[Pbartender]

I have only been playing 4E for a couple months and I've already spent a ridiculous sum on their products. That DOES entitle me to good support.

No, that entitles you to the products you spent a ridiculous sum on and nothing more.

If you thought the sum was ridiculous, you didn't have to purchase the products... That's the miracle of capitalism.


But, for that matter, you did get support. The support was: "Sorry, you can't use that. Here is what you can use."