WotC needs to read up on some Techdirt

[Wicht]

Going strong does not equal leading the market. White Wolf is still "going strong", but where are they at?

I'm not sure in what context you see White Wolf as going strong. They have a very weak market presence at the moment and are even now transitioning even further away from producing many print products.

 

[shadzar]

I'm not sure in what context you see White Wolf as going strong. They have a very weak market presence at the moment and are even now transitioning even further away from producing many print products.

The concept that pointing to Amazon and say they are "going strong" means nothing.

Because Amazon still lists their products?
Because Amazon has new products listed for them for the future?
Because Amazon still has their products for sale?

What would you be saying when stating they are "going strong'.

White Wolf, just as my statement confused you to prove my point, is still making games stuff and hasn't quit, so they are still "going strong", as opposed to quitting.

So some peoples "data" and "proof" is useless, as I am sure was being said of the article stating Pathfinder was matching D&D sales, that some would view that report as useless.

So you can dismiss each other until you really have no point of discussion anymore.

The question then lies with, do you try not dismissing, or try to resume communication and discussion, or just quit talking about it?

Again, no horse in that race, but each person will only believe the places they believe to have the right facts and data.

 

[Kafen]

Yeah, but then people will just discount the ICv2 report saying that it's not accurate and that it means nothing. When some of these same people were pointing to it and Amazon standings to proof that 4E was going strong.

Listen I know that it's important for some people that their game of choice be recognized, but all I care about is that Pazio turns out a good product and treats it's fans with a modicum of respect. Just give me that and I'm good.

Yup yup! 4e and reports aside, the only important market share that counts for Paizo is cash at the moment. Personally, I buy the PF products because they are stable as a rule set (in my opinion at least) and my neighbor plays the game. The high quality of product and actual reply to questions by staff on the PF forum is a huge plus for me, too.

 

[Glade Riven]

But comparing Paizo to WotC on the paywall issue like this is preposterous...

*looks up his original post, looks back at your post, looks back at original post*

I'm confused. I don't bring up the paywall thing when comparing WotC to Paizo at all. The later post about paywalls doesn't even mention Paizo, only that WotC adding additional value is a good thing...

 

[DEFCON 1]

1) Yeah, but then people will just discount the ICv2 report saying that it's not accurate and that it means nothing. When some of these same people were pointing to it and Amazon standings to proof that 4E was going strong.

2) Listen I know that it's important for some people that their game of choice be recognized, but all I care about is that Pazio turns out a good product and treats it's fans with a modicum of respect. Just give me that and I'm good.

I would like to point out that your claim of #2 appears to be in direct opposition to your point #1.

If all you care about is that Paizo makes a good product and treats you with respect... why does #1 matter? And if it doesn't matter, why are you bothering to bring it up?

 

[ShinHakkaider]

I would like to point out that your claim of #2 appears to be in direct opposition to your point #1.

If all you care about is that Paizo makes a good product and treats you with respect... why does #1 matter? And if it doesn't matter, why are you bothering to bring it up?

My response was to Wicht who posted:

From comments dropped here and there I'm starting to suspect that Paizo grabbing the #1 spot may occur sooner rather than later (as in they are already there). The next ICv2 report should be interesting. We'll see I guess.

I responded with:

Yeah, but then people will just discount the ICv2 report saying that it's not accurate and that it means nothing. When some of these same people were pointing to it and Amazon standings to proof that 4E was going strong.

Listen I know that it's important for some people that their game of choice be recognized, but all I care about is that Pazio turns out a good product and treats it's fans with a modicum of respect. Just give me that and I'm good.

The first part of it is me basically telling him that it doesn't matter if it does come in at #1 because people who are not fans of Paizo, who don't like Pathfinder, who want to see Pathfinder fail or who dont like or cant get past the idea that maybe, just MAYBE their game of choice (which is in this case 4E) may not be doing as well as they'd like, are going to say that whatever barometer that was used to judge sales isn't accurate. When these same people, years, even months ago were using Icv2 and Amazon sales to convince everyone who would listen, but especially those who were NOT 4E fans that it was doing well or better than well.

Basically if he was looking to that ICv2 list to prove anything that it wouldn't to anyone who DIDNT WANT to be convinced.

Which leads into the second part of my statement, which was aimed at him and 4E people who use these things to show that their game of choice is doing well.

I dont see how one is in direct opposition to the other unless you are drastically misinterpreting what I said or are looking for a fight by saying that I said something that I didnt. Either way I hope this clears things up a bit.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

I'm not sure in what context you see White Wolf as going strong. They have a very weak market presence at the moment and are even now transitioning even further away from producing many print products.

Are they even producing print products any more? I thought they were moving to strictly PDF and POD?

HERE
Scroll down to the poster named Emprint who says that they are the V:tR developer...

 

[Wicht]

Basically if he was looking to that ICv2 list to prove anything that it wouldn't to anyone who DIDNT WANT to be convinced.

For the record, I'm not really trying to "prove" anything. I'm just making comment on what I observe happening as an interested participant in the RPG community.

I will not deny that I am pleased at Paizo's success, but that should not be taken to mean I bear WotC any ill-will. Indeed, I would much prefer a vigorous competition in the market on both sides by each company as I think such a think is healthier in the long run. And, as I said elsewhere, I have an emotional investment in the D&D brand itself and would like it to be a game that succeeds and one which I can support.

 

[Wicht]

Are they even producing print products any more? I thought they were moving to strictly PDF and POD?

HERE
Scroll down to the poster named Emprint who says that they are the V:tR developer...

As far as I can tell, they are still producing print (though not a lot), and they are purposefully moving (ever more rapidly it seems) towards being a minor player in the printed RPG world. They have not, it seems to me, been a major RPG producer for well over a year as far as market presence is concerned. Which seems to surprise a lot of people who still think of them as the #2 RPG producer behind WotC.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

For the record, I'm not really trying to "prove" anything. I'm just making comment on what I observe happening as an interested participant in the RPG community.

I will not deny that I am pleased at Paizo's success, but that should not be taken to mean I bear WotC any ill-will. Indeed, I would much prefer a vigorous competition in the market on both sides by each company as I think such a think is healthier in the long run. And, as I said elsewhere, I have an emotional investment in the D&D brand itself and would like it to be a game that succeeds and one which I can support.

Hey, I'm pleased at pazio's success as well. But unlike you I no longer have an emotional attachment to the D&D brand. I dont wish them ill will but it's a product that I no longer support or really care about in the way that I once did.

Bottom line I feel like this: People who play and love 4E should do that. Play 4E

People who play and love Pathfinder or 3.5 should do that. Play Pathfinder or 3.5

People who play both are gifted and special souls who will be praised in song for years after the demise of both games.